[PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route

Tue May 8 10:00:07 EDT 2012

  Somewhere long ago I heard the phrase:  "don't confuse the issue with the facts".   And more recently:  "never let the facts get in the way of a good story".
Sorry - I'm clueless as to source.  > From: dwightlong at verizon.net
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
> Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 01:14:02 -0400
> 
> 
> John
> 
> Well stated. Lots of stuff floated around in enthusiast circles, and a good 
> bit of it has acquired the patina of gospel with the passage of time, 
> whether rightfully or wrongfully.  Some will probably never be disproved. 
> We lack sufficient original sources.
> 
> Dwight
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 9:00 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
> 
> 
> >
> >  As they say, 20/20 hindsight is perfect.  This seems to be arguing about 
> > how JB interpreted what he was told and how he put it on paper.  Besides, 
> > Electric Railroads was a railfan publication - it wasn't a thesis.  That's 
> > not to say that Electric Railroads didn't have some good stuff over the 
> > years.   But what's not in the Electric Railroads issue was any commentary 
> > on the original cars assigned to Charleroi service.  No one read the local 
> > paper to note the accident reports around 1906-08 in Mon Valley.   Another 
> > fable was the alleged higher speed of the interurban PCC cars.    > 
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net
> >> Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 20:16:28 -0400
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> >>
> >> Karl Hittle was in engineering.   But I think your point is well taken 
> >> from another perspective.   The writers probably gave credit to those 
> >> Karl because they provided a roster.  Karl was always very helpful in 
> >> that connection.  He ran tons of paper through the copier making 
> >> reproductions of drawings for me when I was a teenager.  He was 
> >> wonderfully supportive of the fans.   But crediting him does not say or 
> >> even imply that Hittle or his boss Howard Bierwith actually reviewed the 
> >> text to see if any gremlins snuck in.
> >>
> >> Remember the comment about reducing unsprung weight that Tom Parkinson 
> >> made.   There really isn't much on a PCC truck below the springs except 
> >> wheels, axles, axle housings, journal bearings, pinions, ring gears and 
> >> the portion of drive shaft weight carried on the axle housings.
> >>
> >> You would not want to increase the weight of the bolster because it hangs 
> >> on swing links.   Increasing that weight would cause more lurching on 
> >> curves.
> >>
> >> You cannot readily change the weight of the motors ... they are about 695 
> >> pounds a piece from the factory.   Westinghouse made those.   Not 
> >> Pittsburgh Railways.
> >>
> >> That leave only the brake beams, the frame tubes (filling them with 
> >> lead?) and the cross members, all of which came from the factory in one 
> >> design.
> >>
> >> It really doesn't make sense.
> >>
> >> There is a tremendous amount of material that floated around the 
> >> Pittsburgh Electric Railway Club that didn't make sense .... a lot of 
> >> hearsay that Ed Lybarger has attempted to verify and has never been able 
> >> to.   Examples include the supposed line up of 830s stuck in a snow storm 
> >> in Greensburg on the Irwin line ... I remember Ed saying to me something 
> >> to the effect that, 'If that happened, would it not have been in the 
> >> newspaper?   He checked the Greensburg newspaper ... whose staffers could 
> >> have looked out their windows and seen them ... nothing mentioned.  That 
> >> is one of many examples.   I think a lot of the stories probably began 
> >> with motormen who just wanted to see how far some of the crap would 
> >> spread if they started it!  You know how that works ... these trolley 
> >> jollies are crazy ... let's see if we can put one over on them.   :<)
> >>
> >> I think, like a lot of the political things we see on the internet that 
> >> once started have a life of their own, this story about the extra weight 
> >> built into the trucks is probably another one of those stories that has, 
> >> over time, achieved a life all its own and even if disproved, it would 
> >> never go away.
> >>
> >> Brown was the president (for sometime at least) of the Pittsburgh 
> >> Electric Railway Club.  I think he had an EE degree.  He worked for Union 
> >> Switch and Signal and later for the Pennsylvania Railroad in signals and 
> >> communications; I think it was Penn Central when he retired.     When I 
> >> first met him, he lived at 341 Stanford Avenue in West View ... that was 
> >> when the club's members bought 832, M1, 3756 and moved them out to Arden. 
> >> Later, when he was with the railroad, he was living near Paoli.   He also 
> >> installed the first train phones on the Strasburg locomotives.   He now 
> >> resides on the Washington interurban right of way near Donaldson's 
> >> Crossroads, Washington County, in Forest Lawn Cemetery.
> >>
> >> Bartley lived in Ben Avon.  I only met him once as a 13-year-old.  Bought 
> >> some photos from him as late as my college years.   Have no clue what he 
> >> did.
> >>
> >> Dengler was a letter carrier obsessed with photographing every car that 
> >> Pittsburgh Railways ever owned ... up front, close and personal.    He 
> >> often would take a whole roll of one car if he thought he could sell 
> >> them.   He died before Brownie.
> >>
> >> Edward S. Miller was a delightful chap who lived in Pittston, about 
> >> midway between Wilkes-Barre and Scranton.  He left home upon graduation 
> >> from high school and worked for Con Ed in a power plant in Long Island 
> >> until the military drafted him.  He was in the transportation corps, U. 
> >> S. Army, in England in World War II.  His mom remarried and he got the 
> >> heck out of Pittston.  His old buddy Mike Lavelle was a motorman for 
> >> Capital Transit so he moved down there.   Step father died so he moved 
> >> back home about 1952 to take care of mother and worked for a variety of 
> >> companies.   A couple of years ago, Ed was getting ready for church and 
> >> fell ... a neighbor broke in and got him to the hospital.  Ed was one of 
> >> those people who would do anything for anybody ... loved people.  He was 
> >> the Catholic who attended mass every day they had one.    He celebrated 
> >> his 90th birthday in a nursing home but was never the same.   Ed was one 
> >> of those people best described as the salt of the earth.  !
> >   !
> >>  They didn't come any nicer.
> >>
> >>
> >> On May 6, 2012, at 6:18 PM, Herb Brannon wrote:
> >>
> >> > Too bad none of the contributors to that article weren't either 
> >> > Maintenance
> >> > Employees or PRCo Engineers (P.E. type).  Maybe then they would have
> >> > spelled out what they meant by, "....had some weight applied...".
> >> > On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Phillip Clark Campbell 
> >> > <pcc_sr at yahoo.com>wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> John Baxter wrote the "Electric Railroads" 1952 article about
> >> >> the Prc interurbans.  This is 12-letter-sized pages.  Contributing
> >> >> to the article were 3-reporters from the "Washington [Pa.]
> >> >> Reporter."
> >> >>
> >> >> Newton E. Tucker, Albert R. Dauk, William A. Keller, and
> >> >> Karl H. Hittle from Prc were contributors along with
> >> >> Kempton F. McNutt of the Philadelphia Co. and
> >> >> Herman P. Hewitt, retired Washington operator with
> >> >> 46-years of local and interurban service.
> >> >>
> >> >> Photo credits include Robert H. Brown, Charles J. Dengler,
> >> >> Edward S. Miller, and Harry C. Bartley.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> The following is page-6, top right above the map.  This reveals
> >> >> more than I remembered and is most interesting.  I am sure many
> >> >> here have this article don't they; please verify the "facts" as they
> >> >> are quoted below:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> "In January 1946, local PCC car 1613 from Craft Ave. car house,
> >> >> with some minor body changes (fender replaced by pilot, trolley
> >> >> retreiver lowered, rear window opened, fare box replaced by Ohmer
> >> >> register, etc.) had some weight applied to its trucks and became
> >> >> the first experimental PCC interurban car.  The next month special
> >> >> St.Louis-built trucks, which had earlier been applied to PCC car
> >> >> 1278 for use on Rt. 37-Shannon, were rebuilt and applied to 1613.
> >> >> Later 10 special trucks [sets] were bought and applied to various
> >> >> PCC cars (as indicated by the accompanying roster) for
> >> >> interurban service.  Placed on the Washington route, they served
> >> >> as guinea pigs for various components later ordered for the
> >> >> 1700--1724 series of PCCs delivered in 1949 expressly for
> >> >> interurban use."
> >> >>
> >> >> "All cars in service on interurban routes are provided with extra
> >> >> equipment as follows: extra trolley pole mounted on roof, fire
> >> >> extinguisher, flashlight, trolley wire pickup, glass covered took
> >> >> kit including axe, wrenches, sledge, etc."
> >> >>
> >> >> The above is what I have written previously on the topic
> >> >> relative to 1613 entering interurban service with B2 trucks.  New
> >> >> information indicates car 1613 first used the experimental B3
> >> >> trucks in revenue service Feb-1946 doesn't it.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://lists.dementix.org/mlist/pittsburgh-railways/2012-05/msg00048.html
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> The complete interurban roster (mentioned above) is not included.
> >> >> Please refer to your copies of this article.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Phil
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ________________________________
> >> >> From: TEP <tompark at telus.net>
> >> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> >> >> Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 6:29 PM
> >> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Question about 69 Squirrel Hill Route
> >> >>
> >> >> Sounds odd to me as we are always trying to minimise the unsprung 
> >> >> truck
> >> >> weight -- up to the point where the truck is unstable or has 
> >> >> wheel-lift
> >> >> that
> >> >> could cause a derailment. Possibly this is why, a truck designed for 
> >> >> slower
> >> >> speeds on street track, needed better stability for higher speeds on 
> >> >> "T"
> >> >> railtrack. Lighter trucks mean less wheel and rail wear and slightly 
> >> >> lower
> >> >> power consumption.
> >> >> Tom Parkinson P.Eng, Vancouver BC Canada 604-733-5430, fax 
> >> >> 604-733-5437
> >> >>
> >> >> On 04/05/2012 12:52, Fred Schneider wrote: Or does heavier simply mean
> >> >> super
> >> >> resilient wheels instead of the regular design? There really isn't an 
> >> >> easy
> >> >> way to add weight to a B2 truck unless you were to weld weight to the
> >> >> bolsteror fill the frame tubes with something like concrete. I'm 
> >> >> skeptical.
> >> >> Istill want someone to tell me how it was done rather than simply tell 
> >> >> me
> >> >> thetrucks were heavier. Phillip, where did you get this information 
> >> >> that
> >> >> weight was
> >> >> added to them? On May 4, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Derrick Brashear
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -- 
> >> > Herb Brannon
> >> > In Cuyahoga Valley National Park
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > 
> 
>