[PRCo] Re: Standard Gauge Car Availability

[Edward H. Lybarger]

My thought is that as a WTCo-owned subsidiary, WP wanted out and wouldn't
have tried to run it.  Too bad Art Spurr is not alive to ask about it.  He
ran Wheeling Traction, then moved to Pittsburgh to run Blue Ridge, and
finally to Fairmont as president of Monongahela Power.

-----Original Message-----
From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org
[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org] On Behalf Of Dwight
Long
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 8:09 PM
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Standard Gauge Car Availability


Ed

But as we've noted in past exchanges, WP had some pretty smart managers.  If
there were actual money to be made, notwithstanding the bookkeeping
allocations, one would think that they would have seized the opportunity.

Yes, it was just after the default if my memory is correct (not at a
location where I have access to the written history).  Wheeling Traction
owned the Brilliant line through its complete stock ownership of the
underlying Steubenville and Wheeling Traction Co., which held the franchises
and in turn was leased to Wheeling Traction.  However, I think operationally
control was by Panhandle--or Steubenville, Wellsburg & Weirton, if the
latter were separately operated (which I doubt). The latter apparently was
allocated a limited number of local cars (beyond the 750 series interurbans)
at the time of the WTC bankruptcy, and may in fact have had insufficient
cars to operate the Brilliant line. At any rate, there were frequent
struggles over fares on the Brilliant line, WTC resorting to the Interstate
Commerce Commission for relief on Ohio PUC authorized intrastate rates.  It
MAY be, and this is just speculation, that WTC tired of these efforts
(particularly since they were in bankruptcy at the time) and was willing to
turn the operation over to the Stream Line to avoid the hassle of operating
what at best was probably a marginal line for them.  It's also possible that
C.A. Smith cut a deal with the municipalities involved to the effect that
"If you want streetcar service back, I'll provide it, but only at XX fare." 
The Stream Line had excess cars and operated the line (normally, at least)
with their single-manned Jones cars.  If further history on this fairly
unique operational switch could be exhumed, it would no doubt make very
interesting reading!

Dwight

----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward H. Lybarger" <trams2 at comcast.net>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 6:16 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: Standard Gauge Car Availability


> It's entirely possible that SEL+BVT could make money where West Penn
> subsidiaries couldn't.  Sort of like the short line railroads doing OK 
> where
> the Class 1s couldn't.  What's the corporate overhead burden?
>
> And this was the time during which they were defaulting on WTC's bonds,
> wasn't it?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org
> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org] On Behalf Of Dwight
> Long
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 6:10 PM
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
> Subject: [PRCo] Standard Gauge Car Availability
>
>
> Ed
>
> To the best of my knowledge, the SEL&BVT never went bankrupt during the
> depression, so your thesis is likely right on target.
>
> However, I hardly think C.A. Smith was motivated entirely by civic
> consciousness.  He must have expected that the line would make some
> money--and if he could, why would West Penn not want to help their bottom
> line?  Or was it just different perceptions of the same facts?
>
> I think the standard gauge CAR issue was bogus as WTC did a lot of 
> changing
> back and forth between standard and broad gauge trucks under their cars.
> (Maybe there was a shortage of standard gauge TRUCKS?)
>
> Dwight
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Edward H. Lybarger" <trams2 at comcast.net>
> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 5:37 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: October 1903 One Trolley Car Left
>
>
>>I would suspect it was simple...one made money and the other didn't! 
>>There
>> are photos of a big construction project, where that line went under the
>> railroad, that resulted in a much safer alignment.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org
>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Dwight
>> Long
>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 4:40 PM
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: October 1903 One Trolley Car Left
>>
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> Interestingly enough, West Penn, through their Wheeling Traction (or was
>> it
>> Panhandle in corporate form) used the same argument to avoid resuming
>> service on the Steubenville to Brilliant line during the depression. (The
>> line had been closed for a year or so for some sort of a construction
>> project) This resulted in the service being turned over to the SEL&BVT,
>> who
>> resumed it much to the delight of the local citizenry.
>>
>> Dwight
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Edward H. Lybarger" <trams2 at comcast.net>
>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 1:02 PM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: October 1903 One Trolley Car Left
>>
>>
>>> This is a condensation of the article that appeared first in the
>>> Connellsville Courier.  That article makes even more egregious 
>>> statements
>>> about gauge..."The Suburban is the only narrow gauge street railway in
>>> Pennsylvania.  In fact, there are few, if any, of them in other States 
>>> at
>>> the present time."
>>>
>>> The point, of course, is that Connellsville Suburban was standard gauge
>>> while all of the rest of West Penn was broad gauge.  Either the company
>>> spokesman or the newspaperman got a bit overzealous in describing the
>>> problem, which was that there weren't enough standard gauge cars to fill
>>> the
>>> schedule.  The problem was solved with a new franchise, which had been 
>>> in
>>> the works anyway, and broad gauge tracks.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org
>>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementix.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Barry,
>>> Matthew R
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:35 PM
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementix.org
>>> Subject: [PRCo] October 1903 One Trolley Car Left
>>>
>>> The Pittsburg, McKeesport & Connellsville Railway
>>>
>>
>
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=WhQhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=044EAAAAIBAJ&dq=mckee
>>> sport%20trolley&pg=1971%2C6837929
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>