Car Life

[John F Bromley]

Toronto PCCs from 1938 were still in pretty good shape when they were yanked
out of service in 1966 en masse.  Had Toronto not started using roadsalt in
lethal doses late in the 1950s they probably could have run into the 1970s
(+32 years old).  Most of the 140 air cars that went to Alexandria were in
excellent condition, only to be run into the ground in the desert (or bombed
in 1967).  Some pieces such as trucks and motors were removed and placed
under standard equipment, including double deck, which ran even after the
PCCs were retired.  Compare these to thye all electrics from 1948 (4300s)
that went into the HRB program in 1972-74 looking as though they were built
ofd rust - tyhat six extra years of salt damage was a killer, and while they
came out looking good they went right back into the salt mines.  By the
early 1980s they were just as bad as they'd been before the HRB.  The second
rebuild of 4500 series cars into the 4600s replaced even more rusted parts
than the first.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred W. Schneider III" <fschnei at supernet.com>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Car Life


> IN SUMMARY:
>
> YES, BOSTON REBUILT A FEW PCCs ONE MORE TIME.  DON'T EVER FORGET THAT
> YOU CAN MAKE ANYTHING WORK IF YOU CHOOSE TO THROW ENOUGH MONEY AT IT.
> SOMETIME, COME LOOK AT BALTIMORE TRANSIT 7407 AT THE BALTIMORE STREETCAR
> MUSEUM. IT LOOKS GREAT BUT ONLY BECAUSE ITS LAST OVERHAUL REPLACED EVERY
> OUNCE OF STEEL BELOW THE BELT RAIL ... ALL SIDE POSTS AND ALL UNDERBODY
> FRAMING MEMBERS.  THAT WAS DONE FOR US AS A FREEWILL OFFERING BY MTA
> ABOUT 8 YEARS AGO ... THE LAST CAR EVER TO GO THROUGH CARROLL PARK
> SHOPS.  WHAT WAS SO MUCH DONE? ALL BUT TWO POST ALONG THE LEFT SIDE OF
> THE CAR (THERE IS ONE BETWEEN EACH WINDOW) WERE NO LONGER ANCHORED TO
> THE UNDERFLOOR FRAME; THEY HAD ALL RUSTED OUT.  THE PITTSBURGH 4000s
> WERE THE SAME KIND OF JOB.  IN PITTSBURGH THEY ALSO REPLACED THE
> ACCELERATOR, MASTER CONTROLLER, BRAKING CONTROLLER BECAUSE THEY WERE
> SHOT.  I STILL REITERATE THAT THE PCC DESIGN LIFE WAS 20-25 YEARS.
> THAT'S WAS IT. AND I'M GOING TO TAKE BACK MY FIRST STATEMENT ABOUT
> PITTSBURGH PCCs GOING 50 YEARS BECAUSE ONLY PARTS WERE GOING 50 YEARS.
>
> DRY CLIMATE? I IMAGINE THAT THE SAN DIEGO / EL PASO CARS ARE PROBABLY
> STILL IN RATHER PRISTINE CONDITION.  WHEN IT ONLY RAINS A FEW TIMES A
> YEAR AND SNOWS ONCE IN 20 YEARS, THESE THINGS LAST.  LOOK AT THE OLD
> AUTOMOBILES IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD.  DON DUKE GOT OVER 600,000 MILES
> OUT OF A 1967 DODGE AND IT DIDN'T EVEN RUST OUT WHERE THERE WAS UNREPAIR
> ACCIDENT DAMAGE FOR OVER 300,000 MILES.  OF COURSE THAT IS THE
> EXCEPTION.  THERE WERE PRECIOUS FEW SYSTEMS IN DESERTS: PHOENIX, TUCSON,
> SAN DIEGO, EL PASO, LOS ANGELES, PACIFIC ELECTRIC, BAKERSFIELD AND KERN
> ELEC. RY., ABILINE TEXAS, MAYBE A FEW MORE AND THEY HAD OTHER PROBLEMS
> ... THE PAINT BAKED RIGHT OFF THE CARS IN A FEW YEARS.
>
> REGARDING CHICAGO'S PULLMANS ... WE CAN'T GO BACK AND ASK GEORGE
> KRAMBLES.  BUT REMEMBER THAT THE 600 POSTWAR PCCs WERE ONLY DELIVERED
> BECAUSE CSL ORDERED THEM AND CTA COULDN'T GET OUT OF TAKING DELIVERY.
> CTA WAS BUS ORIENTED FROM DAY ONE.  SURE SOME PULLMAN'S LASTED UNTIL
> 1954.  I'M GOING TO SUGGEST THAT CTA FORCE FED THEM BEYOND THEIR NORMAL
> LIFE IN ORDER TO AVOID BUYING MORE NEW RAILCARS THAT WOULD BE SCRAPPED
> IN 10 YEARS.  CHICAGO POLITICS MAY HAVE BEEN (AND IS STILL) CORRUPT, BUT
> NOT THAT CORRUPT.
>
> PITTSBURGH PCC TRUCK FRAMES CRACKED? SURE THEY WERE.  ONE EXAMPLE: THE
> TORQUE ARMS WERE A COMMON PROBLEM EVERYWHERE AND MOST CITIES HAD WELDS
> ALL OVER THE TORQUE ARMS.  PITTSBURGH 1138'S TRUCKS ARE BEING REBUILT AT
> ADTRANZ AS I WRITE THIS; THEY ARE REPAIRING CRACKS.
>
> AND FINALLY, LOW FLOOR SPEEDS IN PITTSBURGH.  MOST HIGH SPEED CARS WOULD
> DO ABOUT 35.  THE 3750S, HOWEVER, HAD A LOWER RATIO GEARING THAT ALLOWED
> HIGHER SPEEDS ... PERHAPS 45 TO 50.  BUT THE TRADE OFF WAS LESS SNAPPY
> ACCELERATION.
>
> Kenneth Josephson wrote:
> >
> > "Fred W. Schneider III" wrote:
> >
> > > ...AND IN ANSWER, I would agree that PAT got closer to 40 years out of
many
> > > of them and only 28 years out of the General Electric cars.  I think
> > > this is a tremendous accomplishment considering how little body
> > > maintenance they ever received.  I recall Bruce Bente telling me in
the
> > > very early 1960s ... maybe even late 1950s ... that Pittsburgh
Railways
> > > had shown an interest in changing some cars to double-end cars but
that
> > > the 1600s and older were considered shot and the 1700s were not a
whole
> > > lot better.
> >
> > Let's look at Boston's present Mattapan-Ashmont cars. They were absolute
> > beaters when I last saw them in Green Line service during the mid 1970s.
That
> > MBTA rebuilt them yet again and that there was "enough of the cars
> > themselves" to rebuild is certainly a tribute to the design and to
> > Pullman-Standard's craftmanship. And to how lousy the Boeing-Vertol cars
> > really are! :-)
> >
> > > PCC cars were never engineered to go that long.  I doubt that anyone
in
> > > the ERPCC realistically believed that they would be in the railway
> > > business in 25 years later.  And furthermore, Thomas Conway had opined
> > > that the problem with the industry was force feeding cars into
> > > obsolescence.  And yet we got 26 to 50 years out of the 1700s.
> >
> > I would imagine that in a dry climate with level and well maintained
> > trackage, they may have lasted a bit longer with some tender loving
care. I
> > am surprised the truck frames didn't crack to pieces by the time the
cars
> > were twenty years old given some of the trackage in Pittsburgh.
> >
> > > Some of the very heavy early steel cars might have outlasted the PCC
but
> > > they were clunky, noisy, street hogs that didn't capture the public
> > > fancy.
> >
> > Chicago's famous "Red Pullmans" of 1907 nearly did, lasting in revenue
> > service until 1954, just four years before the last PCCs were pulled
from the
> > streets.
> >
> > > The Pittsburgh low-floor cars were, in my opinionated mind, a
structural
> > > disaster.  As center entrance trailers, there was adequate strength.
> > > But once end doors were added, the side sheets behind the door were
> > > unable to bear the weight of the right side of the platform.  They
> > > sagged.  Boy did they ever sag.
> >
> > I received a good look at the double ender at PTM during 1999. It
certainly
> > sagged significantly. Like a beautiful woman well past her prime. :-)
The low
> > floors were very attractive looking cars in my opinion. People I know
who
> > remember riding the ones converted to interurban service hated them and
some
> > claimed they would wait for one of the "real" interurbans to come along
if
> > possible. But they are nice to look at. This is off topic, but the Twin
> > Cities also used city bodied cars for service on rural lines. Some
people
> > claimed the ones with interurban type trucks and higher speed motors
could
> > hit 60 mph under right conditions. Given TCRT legendary maintenance and
> > engineering expertise, I wouldn't doubt it. But I can't imagine any of
> > Pittsburgh's "high speed" Low Floors reaching anything over 40 mph. I
wonder
> > how they rode on the private rights of way at top speed?
> >
> > > But those 1700s were delivered in a period of declining fortunes and
> > > they ran forever with ever decreasing patronage, money, maintenance.
I
> > > think its either an absolute miracle that they lasted as long as they
> > > did, or an very well engineered product.  What do you think?
> >
> > After riding them, seeing their most intimate parts up close, talking to
PAT
> > employees and reading the books you and Mr. Carlson wrote on the
subject, I
> > chose the latter.
> >
> > And things haven't changed in the motor coach era. Will anything built
in the
> > last twenty years ever last as long as a GMC Old Look or even a
Fishbowl?  On
> > Dr. DeArmond's trolley coach discussion lists, a number of us frequently
> > lament how nothing built in North America today for service under twin
wires
> > (and on pavement) will ever touch the Marmon-Herringtons,
Pullman-Standards
> > or CCF/ACF-Brills for longevity. It is amazing what a struggling private
> > sector industry can demand quality wise as compared to today's taxpayer
> > supported systems with their "use it or lose it" funding mentality. Ken
J.