Car Life

[Fred W. Schneider III]

HOW ABOUT THAT.  ANOTHER REASON WHY CARS DON'T LAST ... BOMBING.  TRY
ALSO SARAJEVO. 

John F Bromley wrote:
> 
> Toronto PCCs from 1938 were still in pretty good shape when they were yanked
> out of service in 1966 en masse.  Had Toronto not started using roadsalt in
> lethal doses late in the 1950s they probably could have run into the 1970s
> (+32 years old).  Most of the 140 air cars that went to Alexandria were in
> excellent condition, only to be run into the ground in the desert (or bombed
> in 1967).  Some pieces such as trucks and motors were removed and placed
> under standard equipment, including double deck, which ran even after the
> PCCs were retired.  Compare these to thye all electrics from 1948 (4300s)
> that went into the HRB program in 1972-74 looking as though they were built
> ofd rust - tyhat six extra years of salt damage was a killer, and while they
> came out looking good they went right back into the salt mines.  By the
> early 1980s they were just as bad as they'd been before the HRB.  The second
> rebuild of 4500 series cars into the 4600s replaced even more rusted parts
> than the first.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred W. Schneider III" <fschnei at supernet.com>
> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 8:57 AM
> Subject: Re: Car Life
> 
> > IN SUMMARY:
> >
> > YES, BOSTON REBUILT A FEW PCCs ONE MORE TIME.  DON'T EVER FORGET THAT
> > YOU CAN MAKE ANYTHING WORK IF YOU CHOOSE TO THROW ENOUGH MONEY AT IT.
> > SOMETIME, COME LOOK AT BALTIMORE TRANSIT 7407 AT THE BALTIMORE STREETCAR
> > MUSEUM. IT LOOKS GREAT BUT ONLY BECAUSE ITS LAST OVERHAUL REPLACED EVERY
> > OUNCE OF STEEL BELOW THE BELT RAIL ... ALL SIDE POSTS AND ALL UNDERBODY
> > FRAMING MEMBERS.  THAT WAS DONE FOR US AS A FREEWILL OFFERING BY MTA
> > ABOUT 8 YEARS AGO ... THE LAST CAR EVER TO GO THROUGH CARROLL PARK
> > SHOPS.  WHAT WAS SO MUCH DONE? ALL BUT TWO POST ALONG THE LEFT SIDE OF
> > THE CAR (THERE IS ONE BETWEEN EACH WINDOW) WERE NO LONGER ANCHORED TO
> > THE UNDERFLOOR FRAME; THEY HAD ALL RUSTED OUT.  THE PITTSBURGH 4000s
> > WERE THE SAME KIND OF JOB.  IN PITTSBURGH THEY ALSO REPLACED THE
> > ACCELERATOR, MASTER CONTROLLER, BRAKING CONTROLLER BECAUSE THEY WERE
> > SHOT.  I STILL REITERATE THAT THE PCC DESIGN LIFE WAS 20-25 YEARS.
> > THAT'S WAS IT. AND I'M GOING TO TAKE BACK MY FIRST STATEMENT ABOUT
> > PITTSBURGH PCCs GOING 50 YEARS BECAUSE ONLY PARTS WERE GOING 50 YEARS.
> >
> > DRY CLIMATE? I IMAGINE THAT THE SAN DIEGO / EL PASO CARS ARE PROBABLY
> > STILL IN RATHER PRISTINE CONDITION.  WHEN IT ONLY RAINS A FEW TIMES A
> > YEAR AND SNOWS ONCE IN 20 YEARS, THESE THINGS LAST.  LOOK AT THE OLD
> > AUTOMOBILES IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD.  DON DUKE GOT OVER 600,000 MILES
> > OUT OF A 1967 DODGE AND IT DIDN'T EVEN RUST OUT WHERE THERE WAS UNREPAIR
> > ACCIDENT DAMAGE FOR OVER 300,000 MILES.  OF COURSE THAT IS THE
> > EXCEPTION.  THERE WERE PRECIOUS FEW SYSTEMS IN DESERTS: PHOENIX, TUCSON,
> > SAN DIEGO, EL PASO, LOS ANGELES, PACIFIC ELECTRIC, BAKERSFIELD AND KERN
> > ELEC. RY., ABILINE TEXAS, MAYBE A FEW MORE AND THEY HAD OTHER PROBLEMS
> > ... THE PAINT BAKED RIGHT OFF THE CARS IN A FEW YEARS.
> >
> > REGARDING CHICAGO'S PULLMANS ... WE CAN'T GO BACK AND ASK GEORGE
> > KRAMBLES.  BUT REMEMBER THAT THE 600 POSTWAR PCCs WERE ONLY DELIVERED
> > BECAUSE CSL ORDERED THEM AND CTA COULDN'T GET OUT OF TAKING DELIVERY.
> > CTA WAS BUS ORIENTED FROM DAY ONE.  SURE SOME PULLMAN'S LASTED UNTIL
> > 1954.  I'M GOING TO SUGGEST THAT CTA FORCE FED THEM BEYOND THEIR NORMAL
> > LIFE IN ORDER TO AVOID BUYING MORE NEW RAILCARS THAT WOULD BE SCRAPPED
> > IN 10 YEARS.  CHICAGO POLITICS MAY HAVE BEEN (AND IS STILL) CORRUPT, BUT
> > NOT THAT CORRUPT.
> >
> > PITTSBURGH PCC TRUCK FRAMES CRACKED? SURE THEY WERE.  ONE EXAMPLE: THE
> > TORQUE ARMS WERE A COMMON PROBLEM EVERYWHERE AND MOST CITIES HAD WELDS
> > ALL OVER THE TORQUE ARMS.  PITTSBURGH 1138'S TRUCKS ARE BEING REBUILT AT
> > ADTRANZ AS I WRITE THIS; THEY ARE REPAIRING CRACKS.
> >
> > AND FINALLY, LOW FLOOR SPEEDS IN PITTSBURGH.  MOST HIGH SPEED CARS WOULD
> > DO ABOUT 35.  THE 3750S, HOWEVER, HAD A LOWER RATIO GEARING THAT ALLOWED
> > HIGHER SPEEDS ... PERHAPS 45 TO 50.  BUT THE TRADE OFF WAS LESS SNAPPY
> > ACCELERATION.
> >
> > Kenneth Josephson wrote:
> > >
> > > "Fred W. Schneider III" wrote:
> > >
> > > > ...AND IN ANSWER, I would agree that PAT got closer to 40 years out of
> many
> > > > of them and only 28 years out of the General Electric cars.  I think
> > > > this is a tremendous accomplishment considering how little body
> > > > maintenance they ever received.  I recall Bruce Bente telling me in
> the
> > > > very early 1960s ... maybe even late 1950s ... that Pittsburgh
> Railways
> > > > had shown an interest in changing some cars to double-end cars but
> that
> > > > the 1600s and older were considered shot and the 1700s were not a
> whole
> > > > lot better.
> > >
> > > Let's look at Boston's present Mattapan-Ashmont cars. They were absolute
> > > beaters when I last saw them in Green Line service during the mid 1970s.
> That
> > > MBTA rebuilt them yet again and that there was "enough of the cars
> > > themselves" to rebuild is certainly a tribute to the design and to
> > > Pullman-Standard's craftmanship. And to how lousy the Boeing-Vertol cars
> > > really are! :-)
> > >
> > > > PCC cars were never engineered to go that long.  I doubt that anyone
> in
> > > > the ERPCC realistically believed that they would be in the railway
> > > > business in 25 years later.  And furthermore, Thomas Conway had opined
> > > > that the problem with the industry was force feeding cars into
> > > > obsolescence.  And yet we got 26 to 50 years out of the 1700s.
> > >
> > > I would imagine that in a dry climate with level and well maintained
> > > trackage, they may have lasted a bit longer with some tender loving
> care. I
> > > am surprised the truck frames didn't crack to pieces by the time the
> cars
> > > were twenty years old given some of the trackage in Pittsburgh.
> > >
> > > > Some of the very heavy early steel cars might have outlasted the PCC
> but
> > > > they were clunky, noisy, street hogs that didn't capture the public
> > > > fancy.
> > >
> > > Chicago's famous "Red Pullmans" of 1907 nearly did, lasting in revenue
> > > service until 1954, just four years before the last PCCs were pulled
> from the
> > > streets.
> > >
> > > > The Pittsburgh low-floor cars were, in my opinionated mind, a
> structural
> > > > disaster.  As center entrance trailers, there was adequate strength.
> > > > But once end doors were added, the side sheets behind the door were
> > > > unable to bear the weight of the right side of the platform.  They
> > > > sagged.  Boy did they ever sag.
> > >
> > > I received a good look at the double ender at PTM during 1999. It
> certainly
> > > sagged significantly. Like a beautiful woman well past her prime. :-)
> The low
> > > floors were very attractive looking cars in my opinion. People I know
> who
> > > remember riding the ones converted to interurban service hated them and
> some
> > > claimed they would wait for one of the "real" interurbans to come along
> if
> > > possible. But they are nice to look at. This is off topic, but the Twin
> > > Cities also used city bodied cars for service on rural lines. Some
> people
> > > claimed the ones with interurban type trucks and higher speed motors
> could
> > > hit 60 mph under right conditions. Given TCRT legendary maintenance and
> > > engineering expertise, I wouldn't doubt it. But I can't imagine any of
> > > Pittsburgh's "high speed" Low Floors reaching anything over 40 mph. I
> wonder
> > > how they rode on the private rights of way at top speed?
> > >
> > > > But those 1700s were delivered in a period of declining fortunes and
> > > > they ran forever with ever decreasing patronage, money, maintenance.
> I
> > > > think its either an absolute miracle that they lasted as long as they
> > > > did, or an very well engineered product.  What do you think?
> > >
> > > After riding them, seeing their most intimate parts up close, talking to
> PAT
> > > employees and reading the books you and Mr. Carlson wrote on the
> subject, I
> > > chose the latter.
> > >
> > > And things haven't changed in the motor coach era. Will anything built
> in the
> > > last twenty years ever last as long as a GMC Old Look or even a
> Fishbowl?  On
> > > Dr. DeArmond's trolley coach discussion lists, a number of us frequently
> > > lament how nothing built in North America today for service under twin
> wires
> > > (and on pavement) will ever touch the Marmon-Herringtons,
> Pullman-Standards
> > > or CCF/ACF-Brills for longevity. It is amazing what a struggling private
> > > sector industry can demand quality wise as compared to today's taxpayer
> > > supported systems with their "use it or lose it" funding mentality. Ken
> J.