Various answers, corrections &c. ATTN: Jim Holland &
Derrick J Brashear
shadow at dementia.org
Fri Oct 6 18:57:17 EDT 2000
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Re the Pittsburgh Southern and the Pittsburgh & Castle Shannon - An
interesting history of the P & CS was printed as part of the required
historical research connected with the rebuilding of the present line down
the valley that is now going on. Various sources have stated that there
was still P & CS coal traffic over the route for several years after
trolley service started. However, when I walked the line before closure, I
could find no identification on the rails (such as the year) to indicate
that they were the original P & CS rails. So I'm dubious. If you can
remember the "bridge over nothing" that cars going left at the S. Hills
portal crossed enroute to places like Arlington, Knoxville, and Brentwood,
my suspicion is that this was an overpass of the P & CS route heading
toward the hillside and the yard, tunnel, inclines, etc. This continued use
would be justification for that bridge. Eventually, PRCo purchased the
entire P & CS property at Castle Shannon. You wouldn't know to look at it
in our time, but it was quite a complex of mine shafts, loading facilities
and yards. I have read that the PS had a short tunnel at the Mt. Lebanon
end, which if you look at the topography, would certainly appear necessary.
It appears from the lay of the land that the PS went south from Castle
Shannon down the present ROW, through Washington Junction and out the Drake
line. I suspect that the cut on the Drake line was built by PS. At some
point, the PS left the Drake ROW and headed south, but I haven't done the
topo map research to come up with the likely route. Since the PS was
abandoned for 15 or more years before being partially reincarnated as a
trolley route, one suspects that there is little trace today. It is even
very hard to trace any of the Charleroi line south of the present terminal
now, although it may be less obliterated farther out. And, you really need
to be working from a topo map to do it anyway without getting all turned
around. I can remember when the Washington line ROW alongside route 19
was quite evident, today almost no trace is left. regards, Russ J.
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Subject: Re: Various answers, corrections &c. ATTN: Jim Holland & ...
Author: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
Date: 9/12/00 5:27 PM
Subject:
Re: Various answers, corrections &c. ATTN: Jim Holland & John
Swindler
---------------------------------
>Jim Holland commented:
>Greetings!
>
> Not a legend - the inner rails, often called guard rails
but were not
>really needed for such purpose, were from the old narrow gauge
railroad!
>Think that has been mentioned before here on this list and
think that the
>July--1952--*Electric-Railroads* which is an history of the
interurban
>division of PRCo mentions that. When I find some time I shall
quote that
>section.
>
> Are you trying to be a rabble-rouser, Robert?!?!::>>)))
>
>brathke at juno.com wrote:
>
> > I'm waiting for someone to bring up the (urban legend?)
story that the
>guard rails on the Castle Shannon interurban line were
originally from the
>narrow gauge railroad line.
>
> > Bob 9/12
>
> >
At risk of incurring much wrath from all directions, Bob brings
up good
point about "urban legends". Maybe there is much purported as
"fact" that
needs to be questioned as to supporting documentation and
verified???? For
instance, what comes quickly to mind is
Connellsville-Phillips-Uniontown
being West Penn's "Valley Route", as labeled on a circa 1950
map. From
experience, "Urban Legends" is even worse if one delves into
family
history/genealogy, (which might tell you where I'm coming from)
and best
example is some of stuff circulating as fact on internet. (let
the
chastising begin!)
Anyway, just an opinion concerning need for further "research"
(whatever
that implies) on many topics, including Pittsburgh Railways and
predecessors. I'll let others debate this issue because I'm
going across
the street to check out the Pittsburgh Chronicle and Commercial
Gazette
newspapers for 20 Nov. 1884. (just trying to keep current!) In
meantime,
here's some more to add to your P&CS history files.
John
p.s. Oh, by the way, Jim, you wouldn't be interested in
location of P&CS
passing sidings or location of PRC passing sidings on West
Liberty Ave. in
Dormont from 1905 Plat Book for City of Pitsburgh and
vicinity??? (it's on
microfilm)
History of Washington County, by Cumbine, publ. 1882
Pp 397 The Pittsburgh Southern Railroad (narrow-gauge)
connects Washington
borough with Pittsburgh, its route being from Washington
through the
northeast part of Washington County, and thence through
Allegheny County to
Temperanceville, on the south side of the Monongahela opposite
the city.
(note: West End Circle) The project of building this road was
originated by
A. C. Hays and John H. Miller in 1876. With them were
afterwards associated
in the enterprise M. D. Hays, T. P. Roberts, Dr. Kerr, Colin M.
Reed, Sr.,
Joshua Wright, W. W. Smith and George P. Hayes. A company was
formed to
build the road, and incorporated as the ?Pittsburgh, Castle
Shannon and
Washington Railroad Company.? An amendment to the charter and
a
reorganization succeeded, the corporators under the amended
charter being J.
H. Miller, M. D. Hayes, Joshua Wright, Joseph Phillips, John
Rogers, West
Fry, Thomas McClelland, Josiah Reamer, Dr. Kerr and A. C. Hays.
The work of construction was commenced in July, 1877, at
Finleyville and
other points nearer Pittsburgh, and was carried forward so
rapidly that in
January 1878, the track was completed from Pittsburgh to
Finleyville,
Washington Co., and the grading was finished from there to
Munntown, in
Nottingham township (Washington County). In the following
spring the name
of the road was changed to ?Pittsburgh Southern Railroad,? and
at the same
time the plan was changed so as to make the northern terminus
of the road at
Temperanceville. Work was continued during 1878, and in the
succeeding
winter the road was completed to Washington, this making a
third railway
line connecting the county-seat with the Ohio River (another
was: Chartiers
Valley (PRR) via Canonsburg and Arden) The first regular train
ran through
over the entire length of the road Feb. 24, 1879. The road
soon became so
much embarrassed that it was sold at sheriff?s sale, the
purchaser being
James H. Hopkins, of Pittsburgh, who, as is understood, still
holds a
controlling interest and is president of the road. The
stations of the
Pittsburgh Southern in Washington county are Boyer?s,
Finleyville, Peters
Creek, Anderson?s, McComb?s, Virginia Junction, Thomas?,
Gilkeson?s,
Brownlee?s, Wyland?s, Clokeyville, Zeideker, Vance?s, and
Washington. The
length of the road is thirty-four miles. It is in
contemplation by the
management of the Pittsburgh Southern to build a southern
extension of the
road, commencing at Virginia Junction, and passing thence by
way of
Bentleyville, Hillsborough, and other points to Morgantown, W.
Va. A part
of that line was placed under contract in June, 1878, and the
grading was
completed ready for the iron to Hillsborough, but operations
were suspended,
and nothing has since been done towards carrying through the
extension.
Note: Finleyville-Washington now part of B&O Railroad, but
what of
Finleyville-Pittsburgh???????????????????
Note: Pittsburgh Southern used Little Saw Mill Run Railroad
right-of-way
vic. Wabash Tunnel to Temperanceville according to 1905 Plat
Book for City
of Pittsburgh & vicinity.
> > -----------------------------------
>
> > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 09:40:09 EDT "John Swindler"
><j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>
> > > >Donald Galt commented:
>
> > > >Not necessarily the final word folks, but:
>
> > > >PITTSBURGH SOUTHERN
>
> > > >Eyeballing it on the map, I'd say the railway distance
would easily
>be 12 miles from Finleyville to Castle Shannon, with at least
another four
>to the West End via Mt. Lebanon and Banksville.
> > > >
> > > >The following is extracted from Hilton's AMERICAN
NARROW-GAUGE
>RAILROADS:
> > > >
> > > >"[The Pittsburgh, Castle Shannon & Washington Railroad]
was
>originally planned as a southern extension of the ...
Pittsburgh & Castle
>Shannon ... to reach a coal-producing area at Finleyville, 12
miles to the
>south [i.e. 12 mi from Castle Shannon]."
>
> > > Thanks for the info. Jim mentioned hills south of
Washington Jct. on
>Library line to about Mesta. Perhaps, as with turnpike, PRC
took advantage
>of newer technology (ie streetcar in this case) to plot a more
direct route
>and only partially used some existing railroad right-of-way -
that is, if
>PCS&W even existed.
>
> > > >W LIBERTY & BROOKLINE
>
> > > >To answer my own question, Lippincott's map of Greater
Pittsburgh,
>copyright 1908, shows West Liberty incorporated into Pgh,
mostly into the
>19th Ward along with Mount Washington, but partly into the
18th with
>Beltzhoover and Allentown. Beechview, not absorbed until the
year
>following, is still shown as a separate municipality.
>
> > > Allentown (PAT 52) was separate borough. City took a
chunck of it,
>and remainder incorporated as Beltzhoover (PRC 49).
>
> > > >Streetcar lines are shown out W Liberty Avenue to the
edge of the map
>just short of Dormont Jct (Dormont is not yet incorporated)
and along
>Brookline Blvd as far as the city limit at Queensborough.
> > > >So, obviously these two lines were in place by 1908.
>
> > > Didn't find answer to Jim's question about Beechview and
Brookline
>names but following is from pp 770 of 1922 History of
Pittsburgh:
>
> > > "The northern line of Greentree is the city's line of the
20th ward,
>but between that borough (Greentree) and the city lines were
the boroughs
>of Beechview and Brookline, annexed to the city in 1901."
(date could be
>my error in transcription)
>
> > > And further, for Jim's benefit, "Then comes Borough of
Dormont,
>incorporated from a portion of Scott Township in 1909, and
beyond that to
>the south the township of Mt. Lebanon."
>
> > > >EAST LIBERTY
>
> > > >I mistakenly wrote earlier that East Liberty had lain on
the boundary
>between Collins and Pitt Townships. The line between Collins
and Peebles
>Townships (NOT Pitt) followed Penn Avenue. I suppose E Liberty
might more
>accurately be said to have sat on the Collins Tp side of this
line.
>
> > > State Library in Harrisburg has City of Pittsburgh map,
dtd Sept. 1936
>entitled: "Incorporation of Boroughs and Townships now
annexed to
City." Size is about 2x3 ft. If Derrick would like to see what
can be done
with several zerox pages.................
> > >
> > > John
>
>James B. Holland
>
> Pittsburgh Railways Company (PRCo), 1930 --
1950
> To e-mail privately, please click here:
mailto:pghpcc at pacbell.net
>N.M.R.A. Life member #2190;
http://www.mcs.net:80/~weyand/nmra/
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