Various answers, corrections &c. ATTN: Jim Holland &
Fred W. Schneider III
fschnei at supernet.com
Sat Oct 7 09:30:50 EDT 2000
By copy of this memo I'm telling Ruses that you have inquired if he is interested in the Pittsburgh
- Johnstown - West Penn web site. He can get back to you if he is interested.
Russell E. Jackson ... an engineering mind ... worked for Louis T. Klauder and Associates, where in
the 1980s he was involved with Muni on the development of their new car ... of course we all know
that he and Muni were forced by UMTA to swallow the Boeing car, which was less than idea
everywhere. He later worked for SEPTA ... the Kawasaki cars for City and Red Arrow Division were
his babies ... his last completed project at SEPTA involved the N5 cars for P&W. He was involved
with the replacement Market - Frankford cars when SEPTA had a house cleaning and fired a large
cadre of management staff to reduce the budget. Russ is partly retired now but still involved with
rail car design. From discussions we've had, I would believe his knowledge of rail car
engineering, maintenance, design, and so forth are well above average. (He might take offense that
I didn't say extremely well above).
I'm not certain of his age ... I'm 60 and I suspect he is closer to 70 because he was on of the
principal movers and shakers behind taking B&QT 1001 to Branford in 1955. He's see it all and
therefore has become the resident cynic and curmudgeon, and sometimes I think proud of it. He has
managed to carve out a career in the industry while maintaining a hobby interest in railway
preservation. He does not turn off his interest at any state or national borders..
Derrick J Brashear wrote:
> [Who is JacksoRE at STVINC.COM? should i add them to non-subscriber-posters?]
> -----
> From: JacksoRE at STVINC.COM
> Received: from mail1.stvinc.com by portal.stvinc.com
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> Subject: Fwd:Re: Various answers, corrections &c. ATTN: Jim Holland &
> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:41:10 -0400
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Cc: j_swindler at hotmail.com
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> Re the Pittsburgh Southern and the Pittsburgh & Castle Shannon - An
> interesting history of the P & CS was printed as part of the required
> historical research connected with the rebuilding of the present line down
> the valley that is now going on. Various sources have stated that there
> was still P & CS coal traffic over the route for several years after
> trolley service started. However, when I walked the line before closure, I
> could find no identification on the rails (such as the year) to indicate
> that they were the original P & CS rails. So I'm dubious. If you can
> remember the "bridge over nothing" that cars going left at the S. Hills
> portal crossed enroute to places like Arlington, Knoxville, and Brentwood,
> my suspicion is that this was an overpass of the P & CS route heading
> toward the hillside and the yard, tunnel, inclines, etc. This continued use
> would be justification for that bridge. Eventually, PRCo purchased the
> entire P & CS property at Castle Shannon. You wouldn't know to look at it
> in our time, but it was quite a complex of mine shafts, loading facilities
> and yards. I have read that the PS had a short tunnel at the Mt. Lebanon
> end, which if you look at the topography, would certainly appear necessary.
> It appears from the lay of the land that the PS went south from Castle
> Shannon down the present ROW, through Washington Junction and out the Drake
> line. I suspect that the cut on the Drake line was built by PS. At some
> point, the PS left the Drake ROW and headed south, but I haven't done the
> topo map research to come up with the likely route. Since the PS was
> abandoned for 15 or more years before being partially reincarnated as a
> trolley route, one suspects that there is little trace today. It is even
> very hard to trace any of the Charleroi line south of the present terminal
> now, although it may be less obliterated farther out. And, you really need
> to be working from a topo map to do it anyway without getting all turned
> around. I can remember when the Washington line ROW alongside route 19
> was quite evident, today almost no trace is left. regards, Russ J.
> ____________________Forward Header_____________________
> Subject: Re: Various answers, corrections &c. ATTN: Jim Holland & ...
> Author: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> Date: 9/12/00 5:27 PM
>
> Subject:
> Re: Various answers, corrections &c. ATTN: Jim Holland & John
> Swindler
> ---------------------------------
>
> >Jim Holland commented:
>
> >Greetings!
> >
> > Not a legend - the inner rails, often called guard rails
> but were not
> >really needed for such purpose, were from the old narrow gauge
> railroad!
> >Think that has been mentioned before here on this list and
> think that the
> >July--1952--*Electric-Railroads* which is an history of the
> interurban
> >division of PRCo mentions that. When I find some time I shall
> quote that
> >section.
> >
> > Are you trying to be a rabble-rouser, Robert?!?!::>>)))
> >
> >brathke at juno.com wrote:
> >
> > > I'm waiting for someone to bring up the (urban legend?)
> story that the
> >guard rails on the Castle Shannon interurban line were
> originally from the
> >narrow gauge railroad line.
> >
> > > Bob 9/12
> >
> > >
>
> At risk of incurring much wrath from all directions, Bob brings
> up good
> point about "urban legends". Maybe there is much purported as
> "fact" that
> needs to be questioned as to supporting documentation and
> verified???? For
> instance, what comes quickly to mind is
> Connellsville-Phillips-Uniontown
> being West Penn's "Valley Route", as labeled on a circa 1950
> map. From
> experience, "Urban Legends" is even worse if one delves into
> family
> history/genealogy, (which might tell you where I'm coming from)
> and best
> example is some of stuff circulating as fact on internet. (let
> the
> chastising begin!)
>
> Anyway, just an opinion concerning need for further "research"
> (whatever
> that implies) on many topics, including Pittsburgh Railways and
> predecessors. I'll let others debate this issue because I'm
> going across
> the street to check out the Pittsburgh Chronicle and Commercial
> Gazette
> newspapers for 20 Nov. 1884. (just trying to keep current!) In
> meantime,
> here's some more to add to your P&CS history files.
>
> John
>
> p.s. Oh, by the way, Jim, you wouldn't be interested in
> location of P&CS
> passing sidings or location of PRC passing sidings on West
> Liberty Ave. in
> Dormont from 1905 Plat Book for City of Pitsburgh and
> vicinity??? (it's on
> microfilm)
>
> History of Washington County, by Cumbine, publ. 1882
>
> Pp 397 The Pittsburgh Southern Railroad (narrow-gauge)
> connects Washington
> borough with Pittsburgh, its route being from Washington
> through the
> northeast part of Washington County, and thence through
> Allegheny County to
> Temperanceville, on the south side of the Monongahela opposite
> the city.
> (note: West End Circle) The project of building this road was
> originated by
> A. C. Hays and John H. Miller in 1876. With them were
> afterwards associated
> in the enterprise M. D. Hays, T. P. Roberts, Dr. Kerr, Colin M.
> Reed, Sr.,
> Joshua Wright, W. W. Smith and George P. Hayes. A company was
> formed to
> build the road, and incorporated as the ?Pittsburgh, Castle
> Shannon and
> Washington Railroad Company.? An amendment to the charter and
> a
> reorganization succeeded, the corporators under the amended
> charter being J.
> H. Miller, M. D. Hayes, Joshua Wright, Joseph Phillips, John
> Rogers, West
> Fry, Thomas McClelland, Josiah Reamer, Dr. Kerr and A. C. Hays.
>
> The work of construction was commenced in July, 1877, at
> Finleyville and
> other points nearer Pittsburgh, and was carried forward so
> rapidly that in
> January 1878, the track was completed from Pittsburgh to
> Finleyville,
> Washington Co., and the grading was finished from there to
> Munntown, in
> Nottingham township (Washington County). In the following
> spring the name
> of the road was changed to ?Pittsburgh Southern Railroad,? and
> at the same
> time the plan was changed so as to make the northern terminus
> of the road at
> Temperanceville. Work was continued during 1878, and in the
> succeeding
> winter the road was completed to Washington, this making a
> third railway
> line connecting the county-seat with the Ohio River (another
> was: Chartiers
> Valley (PRR) via Canonsburg and Arden) The first regular train
> ran through
> over the entire length of the road Feb. 24, 1879. The road
> soon became so
> much embarrassed that it was sold at sheriff?s sale, the
> purchaser being
> James H. Hopkins, of Pittsburgh, who, as is understood, still
> holds a
> controlling interest and is president of the road. The
> stations of the
> Pittsburgh Southern in Washington county are Boyer?s,
> Finleyville, Peters
> Creek, Anderson?s, McComb?s, Virginia Junction, Thomas?,
> Gilkeson?s,
> Brownlee?s, Wyland?s, Clokeyville, Zeideker, Vance?s, and
> Washington. The
> length of the road is thirty-four miles. It is in
> contemplation by the
> management of the Pittsburgh Southern to build a southern
> extension of the
> road, commencing at Virginia Junction, and passing thence by
> way of
> Bentleyville, Hillsborough, and other points to Morgantown, W.
> Va. A part
> of that line was placed under contract in June, 1878, and the
> grading was
> completed ready for the iron to Hillsborough, but operations
> were suspended,
> and nothing has since been done towards carrying through the
> extension.
>
> Note: Finleyville-Washington now part of B&O Railroad, but
> what of
> Finleyville-Pittsburgh???????????????????
> Note: Pittsburgh Southern used Little Saw Mill Run Railroad
> right-of-way
> vic. Wabash Tunnel to Temperanceville according to 1905 Plat
> Book for City
> of Pittsburgh & vicinity.
>
> > > -----------------------------------
> >
> > > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 09:40:09 EDT "John Swindler"
> ><j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> >
> > > > >Donald Galt commented:
> >
> > > > >Not necessarily the final word folks, but:
> >
> > > > >PITTSBURGH SOUTHERN
> >
> > > > >Eyeballing it on the map, I'd say the railway distance
> would easily
> >be 12 miles from Finleyville to Castle Shannon, with at least
> another four
> >to the West End via Mt. Lebanon and Banksville.
> > > > >
> > > > >The following is extracted from Hilton's AMERICAN
> NARROW-GAUGE
> >RAILROADS:
> > > > >
> > > > >"[The Pittsburgh, Castle Shannon & Washington Railroad]
> was
> >originally planned as a southern extension of the ...
> Pittsburgh & Castle
> >Shannon ... to reach a coal-producing area at Finleyville, 12
> miles to the
> >south [i.e. 12 mi from Castle Shannon]."
> >
> > > > Thanks for the info. Jim mentioned hills south of
> Washington Jct. on
> >Library line to about Mesta. Perhaps, as with turnpike, PRC
> took advantage
> >of newer technology (ie streetcar in this case) to plot a more
> direct route
> >and only partially used some existing railroad right-of-way -
> that is, if
> >PCS&W even existed.
> >
> > > > >W LIBERTY & BROOKLINE
> >
> > > > >To answer my own question, Lippincott's map of Greater
> Pittsburgh,
> >copyright 1908, shows West Liberty incorporated into Pgh,
> mostly into the
> >19th Ward along with Mount Washington, but partly into the
> 18th with
> >Beltzhoover and Allentown. Beechview, not absorbed until the
> year
> >following, is still shown as a separate municipality.
> >
> > > > Allentown (PAT 52) was separate borough. City took a
> chunck of it,
> >and remainder incorporated as Beltzhoover (PRC 49).
> >
> > > > >Streetcar lines are shown out W Liberty Avenue to the
> edge of the map
> >just short of Dormont Jct (Dormont is not yet incorporated)
> and along
> >Brookline Blvd as far as the city limit at Queensborough.
> > > > >So, obviously these two lines were in place by 1908.
> >
> > > > Didn't find answer to Jim's question about Beechview and
> Brookline
> >names but following is from pp 770 of 1922 History of
> Pittsburgh:
> >
> > > > "The northern line of Greentree is the city's line of the
> 20th ward,
> >but between that borough (Greentree) and the city lines were
> the boroughs
> >of Beechview and Brookline, annexed to the city in 1901."
> (date could be
> >my error in transcription)
> >
> > > > And further, for Jim's benefit, "Then comes Borough of
> Dormont,
> >incorporated from a portion of Scott Township in 1909, and
> beyond that to
> >the south the township of Mt. Lebanon."
> >
> > > > >EAST LIBERTY
> >
> > > > >I mistakenly wrote earlier that East Liberty had lain on
> the boundary
> >between Collins and Pitt Townships. The line between Collins
> and Peebles
> >Townships (NOT Pitt) followed Penn Avenue. I suppose E Liberty
> might more
> >accurately be said to have sat on the Collins Tp side of this
> line.
> >
> > > > State Library in Harrisburg has City of Pittsburgh map,
> dtd Sept. 1936
> >entitled: "Incorporation of Boroughs and Townships now
> annexed to
> City." Size is about 2x3 ft. If Derrick would like to see what
> can be done
> with several zerox pages.................
> > > >
> > > > John
> >
> >James B. Holland
> >
> > Pittsburgh Railways Company (PRCo), 1930 --
> 1950
> > To e-mail privately, please click here:
> mailto:pghpcc at pacbell.net
> >N.M.R.A. Life member #2190;
> http://www.mcs.net:80/~weyand/nmra/
>
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