PCC Colors

[Edward G Skuchas]

1700 PCC colors, will there ever be an agreement.  That's the problem with paint that fades.  I thought that I knew what Milwaukee Road colors looked like having looked at photos for a long time.  Never saw their cars in person.  Maroon, orange, silver, black, etc.  Thought the tones were muted.  Then I actually saw a car at Race street yards in Philadelphia.  It was a restoration with exact matching "New"color chips.  The colors were very bold.  The restoration was painted with lacquer whereas the prototypes were painted in enamel.  The enamel  fades in time and "chalks" which tends to whiten the colors.  Thus, prototype "in use" photos had more muted colors.  Fresh colors were bold.

In all of the years that I have modeled trolley cars, 99% of the model owners painted their cars in "like new" condition.  Everyone strives for accuracy, too.  When a modeler saw a weathered and a new car, they would choose the new paint scheme instead.  A little weathering of the underbody is okay, like mud on the wheels, but not on the car.  Remember the Model Railroader article about trolley modeling a few years ago where the cars looked like derelicts?  Not received that well.  Transit properties tried to promote good looking equipment.

Transit professionals who were involved with car color designs commented to me directly that the StP models had too much orange in the red, and the cream was too white.  The first models use glossy white and flat red paint.  Even putting gloss paint on the red is an improvement.

When Arden selected their colors, they peeled back rubber gasketing to reveal unweathered paint.  Probably examined as many other locations as possible on available cars.  Then they selected colors from Du Pont Fleet Color books.  Those books containing chips of paint used by various railroad, transit  and commercial companies for vehicles.  The Du Pont colors can me matched even today 50 or more years later because of the registered color formulations.  Having paid for some of the Arden paint colors, I check my samples against the Arden cars.  The red is more vibrant and not washed out.  I think it looks more pleasing.  I remember other models made years ago, and the red selected was not that orange.  So the modelers at that time who had access to PRC cars elected to mix their paints then with more red.

Another problem with the StP cars may be the fact that they may have not painted their cream on, but used the cast body color.  Having 1700 kits, which are not painted, I know the cast body color.  Modelers who have put lights in their cars have noted that the car looks like a night light with the body glowing.  There need to be more paint on their cars should the extra detailing be done.  (The kits are nice for people who can't wait to paint their cars in other color schemes.)

A good number of StP's cars are coming through with mistakes, and they can only fix them if accurate information is thoroughly researched and provided.  Their casting work is excellent, and the detailing is very, very good.

Another note, LVT paints, like mountain ash scarlet, were made by about four different paint companies. Did some research on that too.

Always looking for more info to share.

Regards,

Edward G. Skuchas, P.E.
Senior Mechanical Engineer
Parsons Energy & Chemicals Group, Inc.
2675 Morgantown Road
Reading, PA 19607
610-855-2532 voice
610-855-2161 fax
edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Dietrich, Robert J. [mailto:bob.dietrich at unisys.com]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 8:06 AM
To: 'pittsburgh-railways(a)dementia.org'
Subject: PCC Colors


Was  RE: Fall Trolley Extravaganza

I had the pleasure of meeting the Teacher/Trombonist/Conductor/Historian on
Saturday, we has an enjoyable discussion.  Thanks for following up Dennis.


The Fall Trolley Extravaganza was a nice meet, several hundred folks showed
up.  There weren't as many modules as in the past, seems many of my East
Penn Traction Club brethren had other plans.

Dennis' reference to painting PRCo paint comes from a question I was asking
all over the meet.  What model paint should be used to match PRCo PCC
colors?  This begs the obvious question what color was the prototype?  Fred
Schneider told me it is the paint supplier said it is the same as the LVT
Mountain Ash Scarlet.   Ed Skuchas told me it is redder than that.  The
photo on the PTM Poster at this weekend's meet showed the restored PTM 1700
car repainted in a very red hue.  But the cover of the 2000 PTM calendar
shows 1697 much more subdued and orange, a closer match to the LVT photos
I've seen.

The evidence is all tainted; was the restored car painted with the correct
paint?  What effect did time have on the old color photos (we know what
effect time had on the cars)?  And what color was Mountain Ash Scarlet?

Would anyone like to render an opinion as to the color I should use to paint
my weathered PRCo PCCs?

Thanks.
Bob
 -----Original Message-----
From: 	DF Cramer [mailto:dfc1 at alltel.net] 
Sent:	Monday, September 11, 2000 6:17 AM
To:	trolley LIST
Subject:	Fall Trolley Extravaganza

    Greetings to all of you that I met at King of Prussia.  Thanks so much
for dropping by the booth and saying hello.  I was truly impressed with the
level of modeling craftmanship that you all have.  Bravo!

    A note to Bob Dietrich:  I used Badger Model Flex Caboose Red (16-08)
and Antique White ((16-06) on my HO 1700 Series PCC's.  It seems pretty
close to 1711 at PTM, but as I said, I suffer from color blindness.  I also
followed up in your written request about membership.

DF Cramer  Teacher/Trombonist/Conductor/Historian
www.geocities.com/armconband