Various answers, corrections &c. ATTN: Jim Holland & John Swindler

Tue Sep 12 17:27:12 EDT 2000

>Jim Holland commented:

>Greetings!
>
>	Not a legend - the inner rails, often called guard rails but were not 
>really needed for such purpose, were from the old narrow gauge railroad!  
>Think that has been mentioned before here on this list and think that the 
>July--1952--*Electric-Railroads* which is an history of the interurban 
>division of PRCo mentions that.  When I find some time I shall quote that 
>section.
>
>	Are you trying to be a rabble-rouser, Robert?!?!::>>)))
>
>brathke at juno.com wrote:
>
> > I'm waiting for someone to bring up the (urban legend?) story that the 
>guard rails on the Castle Shannon interurban line were originally from the 
>narrow gauge railroad line.
>
> > Bob 9/12
>
> >

At risk of incurring much wrath from all directions, Bob brings up good 
point about "urban legends".  Maybe there is much purported as "fact" that 
needs to be questioned as to supporting documentation and verified????  For 
instance, what comes quickly to mind is Connellsville-Phillips-Uniontown 
being West Penn's "Valley Route", as labeled on a circa 1950 map.  From 
experience, "Urban Legends" is even worse if one delves into family 
history/genealogy, (which might tell you where I'm coming from) and best 
example is some of stuff circulating as fact on internet. (let the 
chastising begin!)

Anyway, just an opinion concerning need for further "research" (whatever 
that implies) on many topics, including Pittsburgh Railways and 
predecessors.  I'll let others debate this issue because I'm going across 
the street to check out the Pittsburgh Chronicle and Commercial Gazette 
newspapers for 20 Nov. 1884.  (just trying to keep current!) In meantime, 
here's some more to add to your P&CS history files.

John

p.s.  Oh, by the way, Jim, you wouldn't be interested in location of P&CS 
passing sidings or location of PRC passing sidings on West Liberty Ave. in 
Dormont from 1905 Plat Book for City of Pitsburgh and vicinity???  (it's on 
microfilm)

History of Washington County, by Cumbine, publ. 1882

Pp 397	The Pittsburgh Southern Railroad (narrow-gauge) connects Washington 
borough with Pittsburgh, its route being from Washington through the 
northeast part of Washington County, and thence through Allegheny County to 
Temperanceville, on the south side of the Monongahela opposite the city.  
(note: West End Circle) The project of building this road was originated by 
A. C. Hays and John H. Miller in 1876.  With them were afterwards associated 
in the enterprise M. D. Hays, T. P. Roberts, Dr. Kerr, Colin M. Reed, Sr., 
Joshua Wright, W. W. Smith and George P. Hayes.  A company was formed to 
build the road, and incorporated as the “Pittsburgh, Castle Shannon and 
Washington Railroad Company.”  An amendment to the charter and a 
reorganization succeeded, the corporators under the amended charter being J. 
H. Miller, M. D. Hayes, Joshua Wright, Joseph Phillips, John Rogers, West 
Fry, Thomas McClelland, Josiah Reamer, Dr. Kerr and A. C. Hays.

The work of construction was commenced in July, 1877, at Finleyville and 
other points nearer Pittsburgh, and was carried forward so rapidly that in 
January 1878, the track was completed from Pittsburgh to Finleyville, 
Washington Co., and the grading was finished from there to Munntown, in 
Nottingham township (Washington County).  In the following spring the name 
of the road was changed to “Pittsburgh Southern Railroad,” and at the same 
time the plan was changed so as to make the northern terminus of the road at 
Temperanceville.  Work was continued during 1878, and in the succeeding 
winter the road was completed to Washington, this making a third railway 
line connecting the county-seat with the Ohio River (another was: Chartiers 
Valley (PRR) via Canonsburg and Arden)  The first regular train ran through 
over the entire length of the road Feb. 24, 1879.  The road soon became so 
much embarrassed that it was sold at sheriff’s sale, the purchaser being 
James H. Hopkins, of Pittsburgh, who, as is understood, still holds a 
controlling interest and is president of the road.  The stations of the 
Pittsburgh Southern in Washington county are Boyer’s, Finleyville, Peters 
Creek, Anderson’s, McComb’s, Virginia Junction, Thomas’, Gilkeson’s, 
Brownlee’s, Wyland’s, Clokeyville, Zeideker, Vance’s, and Washington.  The 
length of the road is thirty-four miles.  It is in contemplation by the 
management of the Pittsburgh Southern to build a southern extension of the 
road, commencing at Virginia Junction, and passing thence by way of 
Bentleyville, Hillsborough, and other points to Morgantown, W. Va.  A part 
of that line was placed under contract in June, 1878, and the grading was 
completed ready for the iron to Hillsborough, but operations were suspended, 
and nothing has since been done towards carrying through the extension.

Note:  Finleyville-Washington now part of B&O Railroad, but what of 
Finleyville-Pittsburgh???????????????????
Note:  Pittsburgh Southern used Little Saw Mill Run Railroad right-of-way 
vic. Wabash Tunnel to Temperanceville according to 1905 Plat Book for City 
of Pittsburgh & vicinity.

> > -----------------------------------
>
> > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 09:40:09 EDT "John Swindler" 
><j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> > writes:
>
> > > >Donald Galt commented:
>
> > > >Not necessarily the final word folks, but:
>
> > > >PITTSBURGH SOUTHERN
>
> > > >Eyeballing it on the map, I'd say the railway distance would easily 
>be 12 miles from Finleyville to Castle Shannon, with at least another four 
>to the West End via Mt. Lebanon and Banksville.
> > > >
> > > >The following is extracted from Hilton's AMERICAN NARROW-GAUGE 
>RAILROADS:
> > > >
> > > >"[The Pittsburgh, Castle Shannon & Washington Railroad] was 
>originally planned as a southern extension of the ... Pittsburgh & Castle 
>Shannon ... to reach a coal-producing area at Finleyville, 12 miles to the 
>south [i.e. 12 mi from Castle Shannon]."
>
> > > Thanks for the info.  Jim mentioned hills south of Washington Jct. on 
>Library line to about Mesta.  Perhaps, as with turnpike, PRC took advantage 
>of newer technology (ie streetcar in this case) to plot a more direct route 
>and only partially used some existing railroad right-of-way - that is, if 
>PCS&W even existed.
>
> > > >W LIBERTY & BROOKLINE
>
> > > >To answer my own question, Lippincott's map of Greater Pittsburgh, 
>copyright 1908, shows West Liberty incorporated into Pgh, mostly into the 
>19th Ward along with Mount Washington, but partly into the 18th with 
>Beltzhoover and Allentown. Beechview, not absorbed until the year 
>following, is still shown as a separate municipality.
>
> > > Allentown (PAT 52) was separate borough.  City took a chunck of it, 
>and remainder incorporated as Beltzhoover (PRC 49).
>
> > > >Streetcar lines are shown out W Liberty Avenue to the edge of the map 
>just short of Dormont Jct (Dormont is not yet incorporated) and along 
>Brookline Blvd as far as the city limit at Queensborough.
> > > >So, obviously these two lines were in place by 1908.
>
> > > Didn't find answer to Jim's question about Beechview and Brookline 
>names but following is from pp 770 of 1922 History of Pittsburgh:
>
> > > "The northern line of Greentree is the city's line of the 20th ward, 
>but between that borough (Greentree) and the city lines were the boroughs 
>of Beechview and Brookline, annexed to the city in 1901."  (date could be 
>my error in transcription)
>
> > > And further, for Jim's benefit, "Then comes Borough of Dormont, 
>incorporated from a portion of Scott Township in 1909, and beyond that to 
>the south the township of Mt. Lebanon."
>
> > > >EAST LIBERTY
>
> > > >I mistakenly wrote earlier that East Liberty had lain on the boundary 
>between Collins and Pitt Townships. The line between Collins and Peebles 
>Townships (NOT Pitt) followed Penn Avenue. I suppose E Liberty might more 
>accurately be said to have sat on the Collins Tp side of this line.
>
> > > State Library in Harrisburg has City of Pittsburgh map, dtd Sept. 1936 
>entitled:  "Incorporation of Boroughs and Townships now annexed to
City." Size is about 2x3 ft.  If Derrick would like to see what can be done 
with several zerox pages.................
> > >
> > > John
>
>James B. Holland
>
>         Pittsburgh  Railways  Company  (PRCo),   1930  --  1950
>     To e-mail privately, please click here: mailto:pghpcc at pacbell.net
>N.M.R.A.  Life member #2190; http://www.mcs.net:80/~weyand/nmra/

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