Various answers, corrections &c. ATTN: Jim Holland & John Swindler

[Donald Galt]

This is in response to Jim Holland and John Swindler jointly.

On 18 Sep 00, at 10:04, John Swindler wrote:

> >Jim Holland commented:
> >	Humhh der, Andyy - wonder how the linear distances compare so as to figure 
> >grades.  Even Drake climbs out of Wash Jct., but much more
> >gently.  It must be easier by the route they took or they wouldn't go
> >that way.  Does your map show anything about the alignment south of
> >Drake?
> 
[John]
> I'm open to possibility that, south of Castle Shannon, Pittsburgh
> Southern passed to west of St. Ann's School, not east as does
> trolley line, and was climbing, and then was on hillside where
> cemetery is currently near Washington Jct., and was first parallel
> street west of Drake/South Hills Village right of way to Highland
> Road, then was on Drake line to vicinity of Walthers/Drake Loop,
> then curved to south to head towards Library/Finleyville, with
> 50/50 possibility that it was on Montour RR line to Library, or
> else picked up Charleroi line around Kings School.  Nothing but
> pure speculation.  Need more data. 
> 
[Jim again]
> >	Unfortunately, using logic doesn't necessarily answer the
> question! --  Or we would have the line following Charleroi all
> the way from Castle Shannon!   It seems that the distance from
> Drake to Kings School or Simmons is much greater than Wash Jct to
> Hillcrest so there is much more space to work out the grade. 
> 

Okay, let me try to elaborate on my map observations.

First, the 1890 Allegheny County map is at a small scale, and in 
fact not drawn carefully to scale when it comes to railway lines. 
Such maps and atlases were by way of being vanity publications 
featuring landowners, and often have to be taken with caution for 
everything else.

So, it shows the Pittsburgh Southern only generally, with no 
possibility of determining exact alignments. Furthermore, the line is 
drawn with exaggerated curves unwarranted by the actual 
topography. However, if you take that into account it would appear 
to follow the Washington interurban fairly closely between Wash 
Jct and Drake.

(Side note: it is passing curious that the line should be shown in an 
1890 map when presumably it was taken up in a single day five 
years earlier.)

Now, as to the alignment beyond Drake, and to elevations: 
As I said before, my xerox of the map peters out as the line is 
somwhere along the Logan Road, but at this point it is 
uncontestably heading straight for the Charleroi interurban at Logan 
or King's School station.

If climbing were involved between Wash Jct and Drake, the route 
might serve to flatten the hill. On the contrary, from about 1100 feet 
at Wash Jct, it climbs to perhaps 1185 feet in the cutting at 
Highland Road, then descends to about 1000 feet at Drake, for a 
net loss of 100 feet from the junction.

The summit where Logan, Irish Hill and Patterson Roads converge 
at the crossing of the Montour is at something like 1145-1150 feet 
(I misstated it earlier as 1160) which requires a climb of 140 feet or 
so from Drake to this point, over a direct distance of a mile and a 
quarter or less. The Allegheny County map does show a direct line 
and, no matter how trustworthy it may or may not be, we can 
reasonably assume that any major curvature would have been 
indicated.  From this summit there is a descent of maybe 100 feet 
over a comparable distance to King's School.

So I can't see that the route through Drake does anything to flatten 
the hill. Now, it may have required less down-and-up and less 
engineering (the Library line does have some major earthworks in 
the Brightwood area) or there may have been other advantages.

Let's acknowledge that reading a 1:24,000 map is a lot less 
inexact than reading an actual line profile. But I think the above 
conclusions lie accurately enough within the bounds of the 
argument.

Sadly, a short-lived narrow-gauge line that disappeared 115 years 
ago leaves no traces on a modern topographic map - would have 
left none even if the area hadn't been built up subsequently. It is 
intriguing to wonder whether there might be any unknown artifacts 
in somebody's back yard in the Rutherford Acres area.

Ownership of P&S records would presumably have passed to the 
Baltimore and Ohio and its successors. Of course, anything could 
have happened to surviving records - if any indeed survive! - in the 
past 120 years. They could reside, known or unsuspected, in any 
of a number of western Penna libraries. However, the B&O Railroad 
Museum has a website at http://www.borail.org/ and that might be a 
good first place to direct a query.

[Jim again]
> >	Still - if the current Drake / Washington line was used by the
> PS, I am still confounded as to why this isn't mentioned in the
> construction excerpts for the Washington line. > 
> 
Bingo!

[John]
> Speaking of non-railfan authors, I guess checking for 20th century county 
> history books on Westmoreland-Fayette-Cambria counties may also be in order.
> 
And don't forget Allegheny County.

Don