Various answers, corrections &c. ATTN: Jim Holland & John Swindler

[Jim Holland]

Greetings!

	The quotes (>) have gotten unwieldy and I have removed them and
replaced each paragraph of prior comments by Don, John, and myself (Jim)
in double brackets; i.e., [[message]].  Jim's new comments are noted and
come without brackets.

	Quandry Solved:  Seems Don was looking for table land - something flat
for the PS railroad to run on.  Jim was looking for grades negotiable by
a RR, not flat land.  That seems to be the difference in the approach to
the prw alignment.  But I feel more than ever that
Wash.Jct-to-Drake-to-Kings-School is an excellent route for a narrow
gauge railroad  --  Don has finally convinced me.  Please read on to
see!
	
[Jim Holland commented:]
	[[Humhh der, Andyy - wonder how the linear distances compare so as to
figure grades.  Even Drake climbs out of Wash Jct., but much more
gently.  It must be easier by the route they took or they wouldn't go
that way.  Does your map show anything about the alignment south of
Drake?]]

[John Swindler]
	[[I'm open to possibility that, south of Castle Shannon, Pittsburgh
Southern passed to west of St. Ann's School, not east as does trolley
line, and was climbing, and then was on hillside where cemetery is
currently near Washington Jct., and was first parallel street west of
Drake/South Hills Village right of way to Highland Road, then was on
Drake line to vicinity of Walthers/Drake Loop, then curved to south to
head towards Library/Finleyville, with 50/50 possibility that it was on
Montour RR line to Library, or else picked up Charleroi line around
Kings School.  Nothing but pure speculation.  Need more data.]]

[Jim again]
	[[It seems that the distance from Drake to Kings School or Simmons is
much greater than Wash Jct to Hillcrest so there is much more space to
work out the grade.]]

[Don Galt]
	[[Okay, let me try to elaborate on my map observations.  It shows the
Pittsburgh Southern only generally, with no possibility of determining
exact alignments.  However, if you take that into account it would
appear to follow the Washington interurban fairly closely between Wash
Jct and Drake.]]
	[[Now, as to the alignment beyond Drake, and to elevations: . . . at
this point it is uncontestably heading straight for the Charleroi
interurban at Logan or King's School station.]]
	[[If climbing were involved between Wash Jct and Drake, the route might
serve to flatten the hill. On the contrary, from about 1100 feet at Wash
Jct, it climbs to perhaps 1185 feet in the cutting at Highland Road,
then descends to about 1000 feet at Drake, for a net loss of 100 feet
from the junction.]]

==================================================

\/*-[Jim Holland - New Material This Post]\/*-

	Think I see the mountain between us - Don is looking to flatten the
hill altogether.  My original objection to going straight out Charleroi
is Wash.Jct to Hillcrest and the double dip roller-coaster Hillcrest to
Mesta.  Wash.Jct to Hillcrest must be at least 5-6% grade - way beyond
the limit of a railroad.  This is the same grade of the
Mt.Wash.trolleycar tunnel.  And the roller coaster dip from Hillcrest to
Brightwood is quite steep also, esp leaving and approaching Lindermere -
probably another 5-6% grade.  It is one thing for a 4-axle trolleycar
with power on each axle to climb  A-N-D  descend a 6% grade  --  but a
100-axle train with only 4-powered axles isn't going to make that.  Not
even a double or triple header of power with 8-12 axles powered - too
steep for a railroad.
	But Wash.Jct to Santa Barbara on Drake is probably on a 2-3% grade -
the high end is steep for an RR but still negotiable, esp for
narrowgauge.  And from Santa Barbara to Drake is quite a distance - so
the drop southbound or grade northbound in this section would be easily
negotiated by a narrow gauge RR.  Thus, the Washington-Drake alignment
for the PS makes much more sense than the Charleroi alignment.
==================================================
[Don Galt]
	[[The summit where Logan, Irish Hill and Patterson Roads converge at
the crossing of the Montour is at something like 1145-1150 feet (I
misstated it earlier as 1160) which requires a climb of 140 feet or so
from Drake to this point, over a direct distance of a mile and a quarter
or less.]]
================================================

-\/*-- Jim Holland - New Material This Post --\/*-

	Aha - that makes for a grade of 2.121212121212121212121% between Drake
and Kings School - quite negotiable by a Narrow Gauge RR.  And the RR
was probably not straight thru this area; it probably meandered a bit
which adds to the distance and reduces the grade.
	S-E-E  Don  --  you have convinced us that the Wash.Jct to Drake
alignment and return to Charleroi at Kings School (aprox) is much easier
for a narrow gauge railroad than the 6% grade from Wash.Jct to Hillcrest
and the 5-6% grades down and up from Lindemer to Brightwood on the
Charleroi line.  M-a-n-y  T-h-a-n-k-s  for your persistence and patience
in getting us to see the light!

[Don Galt]
	[[So I can't see that the route through Drake does anything to flatten
the hill. Now, it may have required less down-and-up and less
engineering (the Library line does have some major earthworks in the
Brightwood area) or there may have been other advantages.]]
	[[Ownership of P&S records would presumably have passed to the
Baltimore and Ohio and its successors. Of course, anything could have
happened to surviving records - if any indeed survive! - in the past 120
years. They could reside, known or unsuspected, in any of a number of
western Penna libraries. However, the B&O Railroad Museum has a website
at http://www.borail.org/ and that might be a good first place to direct
a query.]]

[Jim again]
	[[Still - if the current Drake / Washington line was used by the PS, I
am still confounded as to why this isn't mentioned in the construction
excerpts for the Washington line  --  or the Charleroi line.]]

	Jim's New comments  --  And I still wonder - if parts of the PS were
used by  b-o-t-h  the Charleroi--AND--Washington interurbans, why
doesn't this show up in construction reports.  The *capitalists* of the
day would be ecstatic at having the basic grading furnished free of
charge!!!!!!

[Don Galt]
	[Bingo!]

James B. Holland

        Pittsburgh  Railways  Company  (PRCo),   1930  --  1950
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