[PRCo] Re: West Penn Cars at PTM

[John F Bromley]

Hadn't considered the second choice, what with being a nice guy and all.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred W. Schneider III" <fschnei at supernet.com>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:25 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: West Penn Cars at PTM


>
> Are you saying you agree, or that you want ten percent of my insurance
> when I get shot?
>
> John F Bromley wrote:
> >
> > Hey Fred,
> >
> > Can I be your agent?  I'll only charge 10%!
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Fred W. Schneider III" <fschnei at supernet.com>
> > To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:52 PM
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: West Penn Cars at PTM
> >
> > >
> > > Ed:
> > >
> > > Glad to hear that Seashore is trying to get a grip on it.  The fear of
> > > bankruptcy does have the ability to wake up some people.
> > >
> > > Some of the things they probably still need to learn (and so do most
> > > museums) is that their crews should be straight out of central
casting.
> > > They should understand how to run a car but they also need to be
actors
> > > right out of 1920, or 1930, or 1900, whatever.  They also need to
> > > understand that the public doesn't want to know that this car has 4
101B
> > > motors and K35 control and straight air valves and a DH16 compressor
and
> > > that it was built in 1915, and that it ran on property A until 1922,
> > > then on property B, and then that we bought it in 1951 ... are you
> > > throughly bored yet?  If not we can keep trying.
> > >
> > > I'm suggesting that we be capable of recreating 1900 or 1920, and how
> > > people lived, and why they used the trolley, and why they went
shopping
> > > for perishable groceries at the corner store every day (because
> > > refrigerators were a 1930s thing), why you rode the trolley to work
> > > instead of your horse (old Dobbin didn't like standing in the sun for
> > > twelve hours like your car does) and why twelve hours (because it was
> > > simply accepted that people worked 60 to 80 hours a week).  And that
> > > they used the trolley to go to the cemetery on Sunday afternoon to lay
> > > flowers on Aunt Matilda's grave because that is just the thing you did
> > > on Sunday.  And I'm suggesting that, if needed, we even have people
with
> > > props on the car ... the lady with flowers who gets off at the grave
> > > yard and the woman with a live chicken for dinner (caged of course),
and
> > > the kid who gets on the car to peddle newspapers.
> > >
> > > Or am I not making sense?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Edward G Skuchas wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I am also a member at Seashore.  They evidently had a meeting of
trolley
> > museum reps to discuss the future.  I believe that they had a
professional
> > museum type there who led discussions about what people expect to see at
a
> > museum and what museums should do to attract and keep visitors.  The
result
> > is what I think of when some people are having guests at their house.
The
> > place is cleaned, dirty laundry is cleaned up off the kid's room floor,
toys
> > are put away, the best china is put on the table.  You want to impress
> > someone.  So Seashore finally put in the loop at the end of the line and
put
> > in a little park.  The nicest cars run.  The operators talk nicely and
have
> > good manners.  The cars are put in storage barns.  Only display barns
are
> > open.  The rare trucks are pulled out of the mud and weeds and put in a
> > warehouse or storage container.  The weeds are cleaned up, lawn mowed
and
> > flowers planted.  Nice bathrooms, reasonable food.
> > > > What we see when we look at our rare West Penn shells and other
items is
> > not what the paying customer's see.  I think Arden has a great plan with
the
> > display barn and museum and the longer ride.  As with any museum or
> > business, you don't make the money with just one visit, you want repeat
> > customers and their influence to others to come.
> > > > And then all of the museums must develop and educate the next wave
of
> > volunteers who will have to take over for the current group.  And that
new
> > group did not live with the trolley cars as some of the older members
have.
> > > >
> > > > Edward G. Skuchas, PE
> > > > Parsons Energy & Chemical Group
> > > > edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com <mailto:edward.g.skuchas at parsons.com>
> > > > The Berkshire Car Shop
> > > > eskuchas at home.com <mailto:eskuchas at home.com>
> > > > Importer of St. Petersburg Tram Collection models.
> > > > The trolley modelers source for all manufacturer's parts, kits,
cars,
> > videos, books.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: John Swindler
> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 10:11 AM
> > > > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > > > Subject: [PRCo] Re: West Penn Cars at PTM
> > > >
> > > > >Greg King replied:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Hi John,
> > > > >
> > > > >I'll send it next pay day, you know we Motormen are so well paid
down
> > > > >here!!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >However, point taken, at least it's saved and who knows, maybe
someday
> > > > >someone will have the money.
> > > > >
> > > > >Greg
> > > >
> > > > Gosh, Greg, I'm still trying to catch up with the pay scale for
janitors
> > on
> > > > BARTD. (they are up in the high 20s/hr - and that doesn't include
> > overtime.)
> > > >   And didn't the New York MTA have some employees making close to
> > $100,000 a
> > > > year a while back??
> > > >
> > > > As for my comments, guess I'm trying to ask: what would be the cost
to
> > > > recreate the necessary hardware to bring a 'chicken coop' back to
> > life????
> > > > I've heard figures of around $100,000 for just 27G truck frames from
the
> > > > Edmonton trolley museum group.  (And in Los Angeles, a couple PE
950s
> > are
> > > > coming in around $800,000 plus.)  Then there are motors,
controllers,
> > brake
> > > > system, and the time, effort and skills necessary to install this
> > equipment.
> > > >   Because even if the hardware were available, who would do the
work???
> > > >
> > > > By comparison, what is the level of metal working skills and
carpenter
> > > > skills needed to bring a 'chicken coop' back to a "stuffed and
mounted"
> > > > display state??  I suspect considerably less then restoration to
> > operating
> > > > condition.  Maybe 2,3 or even 5-1 ratio.  That is, since resources
are
> > > > limited, would it be possible to "stuff and mount" five cars for the
> > same
> > > > cost and resources as restoring one to operating condition???
> > > >
> > > > PTM suffers the fate of far too many other trolley museums in that
the
> > > > public is exposed to a junk collection.  One piece of junk is ok, as
an
> > > > example of 'before'.  Two pieces of junk is inexcusable.  Visit
other
> > > > museums outside the railfan area.  How you judge those museums is
how
> > the
> > > > public judges us.
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, as but just one PTM member's opinion, my vote would be to
> > > > prioritize use of available restoration resources to get rid of the
> > 'chicken
> > > > coop' collection in the passing siding area first (through either
> > "stuffing
> > > > and mounting", de-accession, or hide elsewhere), before even
thinking of
> > > > directing resources towards any long term restoration. Of course, if
> > someone
> > > > wants to write out a check............
> > > >
> > > > Again, just one distant member's unpopular opinion.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you, Greg, for your generous offer of $1.2 million (US) to
> > rebuild
> > > > > > West Penn 739 as an operating car.  When can Ed expect your
check??
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry about the sarcasm, which will continue, but why would
anyone
> > want
> > > > >to
> > > > > > rebuild West Penn 739 - or several other cars - as operating
pieces
> > of
> > > > > > equipment??  Because anything that is operated is a liability.
It
> > > > >suffers
> > > > > > continual wear and tear.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How many operating cars are required for a demonstration
electric
> > > > >railway???
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At one extreme are the advocates of trying to restore everything
to
> > > > > > operating condition.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the other extreme is a position that everything at a trolley
> > museum
> > > > >could
> > > > > > be "stuffed and mounted" exhibits, such as the B&O Museum, for
> > instance,
> > > > >and
> > > > > > then buy some Gomaco products to provide the demonstration
electric
> > > > >railway.
> > > > > >   I use that last term because PTM is claiming to be a
non-profit
> > > > > > educational organization, and not a club.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A compromise in between may be the best use of available
resources
> > and
> > > > >allow
> > > > > > for the elimination of the greatest number of 'chicken coops'
from a
> > > > > > property.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just a biased opinion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
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>