[PRCo] Re: To PCC or Not to PCC?.......That is the Question.

[John F Bromley]

I agree with you, Fred, when you say that most people haven't read the
books.  More than once I've had someone I didn't know well spew facts not in
evidence (at me) and claim he'd read them in Fifty Years of Progressive
Transit.  To which I usually politely (and once not so politely) say
bulls***.  I always enjoy the abashed looks I get when I reply to the
inevitable question or response that my response brought.  And every book
has errors - mine has many.  If only I could have written it in 1990 after
spending 5 years of evenings and Saturdays in the Public Library newspaper
archives while Margaret was getting her MA and MBA.  So much would change.
Now it's all in the database and one day maybe it'll go on a CD-ROM along
with the best of the 2200 photos I've found since 1973.

Incidentally I did read both your books (which doesn't mean I could quote
chapter and verse) and the OTHER one as well.  Even the (to me) bits I
didn't care much for (you know I'm not into the really technical aspects and
motor leads yadda yadda) but I did do you the honor of reading everything.

JFB

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred W. Schneider III" <fschnei at supernet.com>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:50 AM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: To PCC or Not to PCC?.......That is the Question.


>
> I love it!  Great show!  And keep track too of those who never say
> anything because they didn't notice!
>
> You haven't given up trying to learn.  How fabulous.  I'm serious.  But
> don't be too hard on them for most couldn't tell a B, B2, B2b, B3 or B6
> truck if it fell on them.  If they simply recognize that the wrong car
> has an inside framed truck, you've proven a point.
>
> Having co-authored the books on the PCC, I never cease to be amazed by
> the number of people who quote those books without ever having read
> them.  One man, whom I still have lunch with most Wednesdays, started a
> discussion fifteen years ago by telling me what a man named Schneider
> had said about PCC cars.  "No, I don't think so."  He insisted.  "No I'm
> pretty sure that isn't in the book."  Then he asked why I was so sure.
> "I wrote it."  I suspect that three-fourths of the purchasers never read
> anything deeper than photo captions, and then they probably skipped
> those in the chapters that explain and define the car.
>
> "Dietrich, Robert J." wrote:
> >
> > Hello:
> >
> > Two things keep me reading mail from this group; PRCo, of course, and
the
> > knowledge and gentlemanliness (no offense if there are ladies aboard).
We
> > have a genuine expert on PCC cars, operators and management of the PRCo,
> > access to every document ever produced for and by the government of the
> > Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, all in a group of smart people who want to
> > share what they know.  We don't have anyone on a soapbox trying to force
> > opinions on us, or anyone criticizing anyone or everyone, and we all
know
> > where the delete key is located.
> >
> > That said I've read a good many posts in this thread and the thing that
I
> > noticed first is that only railfans care (that is why it can be debated
so
> > much here).  But I wonder how many trolley fans (members of this list
> > exempted of course) know what makes a streetcar a PCC.  So I'm going to
have
> > to try a little experiment.  I'll swap the drives in a couple cars - put
a
> > PCC body on Brill trucks, and a Brill body on PCC trucks.  I'll take
these
> > to an East Penn meet that is frequented by about 500 trolley fans.  I'll
> > keep track of the comments and report back on the results.  My bet is
that
> > most comments will be along the lines of:  "What are those trucks doing
on
> > that PCC car" and "What kind of trucks do you have on that Brill car",
and
> > very few "Why is that Brill body on that PCC car".
> >
> > Now don't get impatient with me, the next East Penn Meet is in May 2003
but
> > I'll try the experiment at the mini meet in May 2002 if I get a round
toit.
> >
> > So keep this group together until at least May 2003 and someone remind
me
> > about this commitment a month or two ahead.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From:   Jim Holland [mailto:pghpcc at pacbell.net]
> > Sent:   Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:43 AM
> > To:     pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > Subject:        [PRCo] Re: To PCC or Not to PCC?.......That is the
Question.
> >
> > Good Morning!!
> >
> >         To take this a little further.   Mainline RRs can have
interurban
> > service   ---   the
> > Pennsy running strictly between Pgh and Johnstown might be considered
such.
> > Or Pgh. and
> > Cleveland.
> >
> >         But it might be stretching it a bit to say Pgh. to Philly on a
> > RR--train is interurban
> > and certainly Pgh. to Chicago is stretching the point and Pgh to LA is
> > Trans--Continental,
> > definitely out of interurban class (although possibly still applicable.)
> >
> >         But then again, people in the 1920s boasted about being able to
take
> > the  *Trolleycar*
> > from Pgh to places in Wisconsin, changing frequently to get there, but
it is
> > still by
> > traditional interurban as we know them!!
> >
> >         .......And an interurban--trolleycar line started construction
to
> > connect NY and
> > Chicago!!
> >
> >         It is difficult (so it seems) to draw a line   ---   and when
that
> > line is drawn, it is
> > often in Sand!!(:->)
> >
> > > Jim Holland wrote:
> >
> > >         It seems that  *at least 2-factors*  affect definitions::
1)--We
> > live in an imperfect
> > > world and  2)--Definitions seem circular.
> > >         *WE*  associate The term  *Interurban*  with  PE,  North
Shore,
> > CA&E,  OE,  C&LE,
> > > BCER,  etc., etc., etc.   But the term is equally applicable to motor
> > coaches, even
> > > railroads.   It is transit between two cities and in the case of rail
> > equipment like PE,
> > > it is mostly on prw!
> > >         The term  *streetcar*  is defined as a vehicle that provides
> > transit in a city while
> > > operating in the streets.   This can include a  horse--car,
cable--car,
> > trolleycar,
> > > battery--car,  etc., etc., etc.
> > >         Now, then, to be perfectly specific about the type of
interurban
> > of which one speaks, do
> > > we say  *Interurban--trolleycar??*   Seems like a misnomer since
> > trolleycars run mostly on
> > > streets and interurbans mostly on prw.
> > >         And an acceptable definition of  *Light--Rail*  centers on
> > infrastructure (not
> > > weight--tonnage) and states that light rail contains mostly prw (grade
> > separation) but
> > > possibly  *some*  street running.
> > >         So it seems that some terms can  cross--pollinate  other
terms.
> > >         Takes yer choice   ---   don't know who said that!
> >
> > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> >
> > James B. Holland
> >
> > Holland  Electric  Railway  Operation.......
> > ......"O"--Scale  St.-Petersburg Trams Company Trolleycars  AND......
> > ............"O"--Scale  Parts  mailto:pghpcc at pacbell.net
> >
> > ............Pennsylvania Trolley Museum (PTM) http://www.pa-trolley.org/
> > ......Pittsburgh  Railways  Company  (PRCo),   1930  --  1950
> > N.M.R.A.  Life member #2190; http://www.nmra.org
> >
> > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>