[PRCo] NCL___TWW

[Jim Holland]

Good Morning!


	I found more correspondence in my files (dated from early 2001) about
NCL and TWW with another individual (whom I list as Mr.Interested-Party)
and share it strictly for informational purposes.    This gives us
'another' reference to Mr.Snell, who wrote the article in the URL 
(http://www.earthnews.net/gmdeliberatelydestroyed.htm)  provided by
Dennis Cramer.

	So what is presented here is just a very tiny bit of  *information*  as
background for NCL.    And also presented is more background on the
Trolleys-Which-Way (TWW) group.    This information alone should not be
used to form any opinion, positive or negative, about NCL.


	A Brief Summary from Below::	'The--Bottom--Line'  (a term often used in
reference to PRCo on this email list)  seems to have dictated many
TrolleyCar Operations  *and*  NCL decisions.

	‡	Salt Lake City made the decision
		to abandon rail in 1929.  Non-NCL.

	‡	NCL 'closed' rail service on 25-35
		of 80 companies they owned  BUT
		decisions to replace rail had
		already been started in a
		majority of cases.

	‡	Non-NCL companies abandoned
		trolleycars as well.

	‡	LATL, BTC, SLPS trolleycar service
		survived NCL ownership to be
		abandoned by "Public--Entities!"


	The TWW email-group was started  *With--The--Belief*  that NCL was the
major if not Sole Reason for the demise of trolleycars in the U.S.A.   
The list seemed to be for those who bathed in this belief while
complementing and exalting each other    ----    in addition to the
belief.
	One did not dare hint at any other reason for the demise of
trolleycars.    Such hinting resulted in viscious flames and name
calling that scorched the ears of this ex-Navy man.    I just quietly
left the list.
	TWW apparently died and was taken over by another moderator or owner
sometime in early 2001.    And most recently TWW apparently completely
disappeared from !Yahoo servers.    It may be revived under another
name.    Explanations for the disappearance are strictly conjectural,
totally lacking evidence, but consistent with TWW policy in blaming
anti-trolleycar people!    *Maybe*  they are right  --  but they are
strongly contributing to their own ulcers!~:D


	Even under the very best of circumstances, companies and individuals do
Not leave a written explanation for decisions and actions.    Some
records exist but there are Many More Holes.    Filling in the holes
requires conjecture    ----    and logic  after--the--fact  is not
always the same as  during--the--process.    This may result in more
angst than satisfaction!~:D

‡	But Trolleycars existed.

‡	TrolleyCars had their Day In The Sun.

‡	I was fortunate to participate in
		the Era of Trolleycars.

‡	Therefore, I would like to Celebrate
		the  Time--of--The--TrolleyCar
		on email lists without
		denigrating anyone or
		anything.

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Mr.Interested-Party writes:::::::

	The financial angle affected a number of abandonment decisions, but is
seldom mentioned.    It was why Salt Lake City was so drawn out, having
decided in 1929 to convert from rail, first to trolleybus and when by
about 1932 buses improved to make them more financially attractive
decided to change over to gas buses.    But the rail system was
completely abandoned by early '41.    A short section was brought back
in late '41 on orders from DC.
	Note, too, that in Los Angeles, Baltimore, and St.Louis (all NCL/ACL)
trolleys lasted much longer than in a number of non-NCL cities.    The
Fitzgeralds were businessmen, and I suspect the bottom line was a
factor.
	I have been doing some serious work, comparing NCL acquisition dates
with rail abandonment dates.    Turns out that NCL/PCL actually were
responsible for closing rail service on no more than 35 (using a very
loose standard--25 is probably closer) of the 80 companies they owned at
one time or another, and many of those were already well advanced.   
Only five of their systems were in major cities.    So this destroyed
the industry?!     Most people base their knowledge on the 60 Minutes
program.    Those who consider themselves informed maybe read some of
Snell's information [Snell wrote the article in the URL provided by
Dennis Cramer.]     He [Snell] told me at least five years ago--perhaps
more--that his book exposing GM would be out within a year.    It's
still not out.    I suspect the publisher got nervous about some of his
allegations.    [This was written in early 2001, almost 2-years ago.]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr.Interested-Party continues:::::::

	But XXXX likes to invent a strawman and then knock it down, which he
did, effectively killing the trolleys-which-way site in the process.   
One can't talk to people like that......    I know I won't post anything
more on NCL and shouldn't have done this one, although Mr.CCCC seems
truly interested, but has heard only the conspiracy side.
	XXXX managed to kill the Trolleys-which-way site, which could have
developed into something useful.    He tried to get me barred from it.
He succeeded in getting me off it when I saw what was going on--I didn't
need that kind of foolishness so I left.

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Jim  Holland  Wrote:::::::

        As for the 'which-way' list, I dropped it  l-o-n-g  ago because
it was a one-sided argument.    Even LLLL....... thinks that NCL is
guilty as sin and the sole reason for the trolleycar demise - he is not
open to other arguments.    So the list....... was strongly prejudiced.
        Then I remember seeing comments on another list about reviving
the which-way list - and LLLL chimed in that it was still a viable
entity.
        No one can see the nose on his own face (even though it is
Plainly Visible - we actually choose to look around it and that is how
and why the saying developed) and that absolutely everything has its day
in the sun - and then is buried and all but forgotten.    Such is the
case of trolleycars!

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James B. Holland

Holland  Electric  Railway  Operation....... 
___"O"--Scale St.-Petersburg Trams Company Trolleycars and...
______"O"--Scale  Parts  mailto:pghpcc at pacbell.net

______Pennsylvania Trolley Museum http://www.pa-trolley.org/
___Pittsburgh  Railways  Company  (PRCo),   1930  --  1950
N.M.R.A.  Life member #2190; http://www.nmra.org

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