[PRCo] B2Bs

[James B. Holland]

Fred Schneider wrote:

>2.  I fail to see the logic in your statement about the B-2bs until you got to the last statement.  Did you ask Bruce Wells or anyone in charge in the 1960s and 1970s for the history of those trucks or are you simply speculating?  Could they have come off the GE 1700s that were retired in 1967?    Did some 1700s get B-2 trucks from scrapped 1600s or 1500s?  (Both the 1500s and 1600s had blown motors.)   I think you need to ask and find answers to a lot more questions before reaching any conclusions.  For what it is worth, I did observe many cars with B-2B trucks in the early 1980s.  I pin point the dates because I had finished the PCC books at that time and understood what such a truck was.  I doubted the earlier comments on this site but I had no proof that they changed or didn't change anything so I stayed in the background.  But I find it preposterous that several rusting trucks at a museum can be evidence of a policy affecting up to 75 cars, some of which were scrapped as early as 1967 and some of which surrendered parts to build a smaller number of 4000s.   Are the trucks you saw even broad gauge?
>

                I have made many comments about the B2B and have asked 
OnList and Privately about these trucks and have asked people to look at 
the spares at PTM to see what is there after the report in the 1990s 
that PTM received spare trucks, both City and Interurban, from  
({[pat.]})       I had specifically asked you to look at the trucks as 
well as others at PTM but never received a reply.

                Ride  DEFINITELY  changed about 1960 still well within 
PRCo days, long before  ({[pat]})  and long before the GE cars were 
scrapped  --  what had been a super soft ride became hard, even harder 
than that on 1600s and other air-cars.       Trucks from other equipment 
would not be available at that time, unless trucks from tens and elevens 
were used, and then a massive rebuilding ensued because torque arms on 
17s were distinctly different from those on tens and elevens as were the 
springs used on the track brakes       I asked if the B2Bs under the 
1700 series City Cars had been retrofitted with swing links  --  I also 
asked if the bolster had been bolted to the tube frame or otherwise 
modified.       I did not know if changes had been made but I did know 
that the ride was distinctly different under PRCo.

                (As an aside, the trucks under the 16s had torque arms 
like those on the tens and elevens when delivered from SLCCo as well as 
extension springs on the track brakes.       But at some point, torque 
arms were changed on the 16s to be identical to those on the 17s, the 
tube frame had a plate for mounting the drum brake actuator  (said plate 
not on original 1601-series trucks), and springs on track brake changed 
to compression like City 17s.)

                The motion from the B2B rubber bolster springs was 
distinctly different from other cars.       In heavy traffic when 
repeated applications of power were needed and then power was almost 
immediately released, the car would lift gently and then settle  --  
this could easily be felt when riding and Easily Be Seen from the 
outside.       When in Toronto in 1959 my heart literally stopped when I 
saw this same identical action on a PCC there  --  NOT  ALL  PCCs but 
just this certain one  --  and as it turns out, 49 others the Very Last 
New PCCs to be ordered by Toronto.       Cox' book confirmed that PRCo 
1725--1799 and TTC 4500--4549 had B2B trucks.       When a dip in the 
trackwork was negotiated the car would seem to move a car length beyond 
before very slowly leaning into that dip and then righting.       
Motormen claimed it felt that the car got lighter with speed and that it 
would float off the track like a feather!

                When I returned to Toronto in 1967 I found that the ride 
on the 4500s was distinctly different, too  --  no more super soft 
ride.       It seemed to me from observation that the ride got much 
softer with age and that the car would lean excessively.       But after 
inquiring, people like Russ Jackson and several others have indicated 
that the rubber gets quite hard with age and wears out relatively 
fast.       When I inquired about the TTC B2B trucks, John Bromley found 
someone within TTC who said the same thing about the rubber and 
indicated that the trucks had been changed out.       Maybe PRCo just 
allowed the rubber to get hard and lose its bounce and left them that 
way but it would seem this could cause problems with maintenance  --  
these cars were used a good 35 or more years!

                ALL  B2B  trucks are wide gauge  --  although TTC only 
modestly so.       PRCo 1725--1799 and TTC 4500--4549 were the only cars 
equipped with B2Bs.


Jim__Holland