[PRCo] Re: I was in USA!

[James B. Holland]

Come on, Fred  --  It's People  --  same happens in private business  
--  just takes a different form.       Govt. Not created for reasons you 
stated, and you know that.       If govt. was created for that reason, 
then businesses are formed purely for greed of the owners  --  simple as 
that.       Your reply is a non-reply and doesn't deal with issues  --  
just manipulative.



Fred Schneider wrote:

>You're absolutely right Jim.  And of course what I observed in 36 years of government
>service was also totally incorrect.
>
>"James B. Holland" wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Your assessment of  *Government__Operated__Agencies*  is  NOthing more
>>than personal opinion // conclusions;  I-F  it was really that bad, then
>>the USA would have been down and out Very Long Ago.       """Everybody
>>knows it's this way"""   is the best evidence to support such
>>accusations and that would absolutely never ever hold up in court.
>>
>>Transit Agencies were on a downhill slide starting in the 1920s and that
>>slide greatly accelerated post WW2 with Very Wide Spread auto
>>usage.       Transit agencies were struggling but the thought of the day
>>in the 1940s and 1950s was that Private Transit Agencies were not able
>>to make it work so it was necessary to take them public  --  into govt.
>>sector.       AND__Today  the cry is:   govt. transit agencies don't
>>work  --  Privatize__Them!
>>
>>What people fail to realize is that it is  NOT  the system  --  it is
>>the people behind the system.       A case in Point  --  How Many Times
>>Have We Heard That:       """Money Is The Root Of All Evil?"""
>>
>>WRONG!!!!!!!       The above is a misquote  --  it is the  LOVE  of
>>money that is the root of all evil  --  it is human altitude toward
>>money that is evil  --  Not Money Itself.       Nothing Inherently Evil
>>in Private Enterprize, Socialism, and many other forms of society  --
>>it is just the people behind the same that make it work // fail.
>>
>>And to really level the playing field, It Is Written that all our
>>righteousness [goodness] is like filthy rags  --  and the word
>>translated  *rags*  is  *Menstrual__rags*  in the original
>>language.       Humans measure goodness relative to one another so in
>>reality, some may not be  *As__Bad__As*  others but the human condition
>>is still desperately wanting.       It is Not Just The Politicians  --
>>all are subject to the same temptations  --  put any one of us in there
>>and watch what happens over time.
>>
>>Remember  --  in the USA the govt. is:::::::
>>
>>""".......Of__The__People.......
>>
>>By__The__People.......
>>
>>For__The__People."""
>>
>>The People Are The Govt  --  The People Are The Problem.
>>
>>Jim__Holland
>>
>>Fred Schneider wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I think you are comparing private enterprise to a government authority.  This is
>>>unfair in this instance because there is no commonality between the two just
>>>because they are in the United States.   You should not compare the U. S. to the
>>>Czech Republic; you need to compare private and government businesses in the U.
>>>S. without any regard whatsoever to how something is done in Europe.  U. S.
>>>governmental transit agencies also behave very differently from those in Europe.
>>>Private corporations borrowed money (stocks, bonds) to build a line, and
>>>hopefully earned enough money by operating that line to cover all operating
>>>expenses and to pay back all the loans.  It did not, in actuality, work that
>>>way.  The totals for all the companies in Pennsylvania showed they had  enough
>>>money at the end of the year to pay bills on hand at the end of the year in only
>>>four of the fifty-one years from 1900 to 1950.  But they were at least set up
>>>with the idea that they would pay their bills.  And they either controlled their
>>>expenses (labor, materials, interest, capital repayments, insurance, taxes and
>>>so forth) or they went out of business.  And one way you controlled costs was by
>>>not fixing things that didn't show.  You also didn't fix things on cars that you
>>>planned to retire.  And by the time 1138 was retired, business was declining
>>>rapidly enough that the railways company had a surplus of PCC cars and could ill
>>>afford to waste money on any of the older ones.  We knew they were rusted then.
>>>So did the railways company.  And Pullman Standard came in to Pittsburgh in the
>>>early 1960s to assess a proposal to make double-end PCCs for emergencies; my
>>>friend with the P-S told me then that only the 1700s were good enough to invest
>>>money into and then they were only marginally good enough.
>>>
>>>Government operated agencies exist for the benefit neither of the governed nor
>>>the users but to provide jobs for important government people and to provide a
>>>conduit through which money is moved to support those people more deserving of
>>>it than you or I.  It is not important if the people in the shops are working or
>>>are not working.  What is important is that they or their union contribute money
>>>to the politicians' reelection funds, that the equipment builders and other
>>>contractors also contribute money.  It is important to the local politicians
>>>that they control this huge agency that buys labor and materials and issues
>>>contracts to consultants, car rebuilders, track rebuilders, and so forth in
>>>order that some of that money might come back to the elected officials.  It is
>>>not called a bribe.  It is called a contribution to the reelection campaign.
>>>
>>>One person on another list opined today that MBTA in Boston does not want to
>>>have anything photographed because it might show someone doing nothing.  And he
>>>went on to relate an incident during his tenure when a mechanic at Mattapan came
>>>to work drunk, watched television all day while he continued to drink.  His
>>>successor came in that afternoon and found that he had to repair five dead PCCs
>>>in time for the evening rush.  He got a hammer and broke up the television set.
>>>The incident turned into a fist fight.  Both were fired.  Then the governor of
>>>the Commonwealth of Massachusetts order the MBTA to reinstate both to their jobs
>>>(places to sit and collect money?).  Just maybe the order happened because the
>>>transport workers union had passed a half million dollars into the governor's
>>>reelection fund?  That was the suggestion I read today.  In Boston, the union
>>>and the politicos run the show.  Obviously it wasn't the public or they would
>>>not have gotten away with shutting down all the train service to the north and
>>>all subway service to North Station last week during the Democratic convention,
>>>and then running special trains from North Station and the end of the convention
>>>each night.
>>>
>>>Virtually all of the major government owned transit authorities in the United
>>>States were formed with in a very short time span in the late 1960s and early
>>>1970s.  It probably would not have happened if government had to make money.
>>>But I feel that this happened as fast as it did simply because the politicians
>>>were totally aware of the value of the money they would control and what it
>>>would buy them.
>>>
>>>The private and government systems are totally different ... one had to make
>>>money to survive and the government agencies have the right to pick our pockets
>>>to pay the people who do nothing.
>>>
>>>And do the workers care as you suggested?  My feeling is that about 9 workers
>>>out of 10 do not care about their jobs.  Only about one out of ten like what
>>>they are doing, and would be happy to be there even without the money.  But in
>>>the case of the Adtranz people at Elmira who worked on PRC 1138 and 1711 and PTC
>>>2711, they were the good people that Adtranz wanted to maintain in case they
>>>were able to win the next bid.  The others were gone and the plant was mostly
>>>empty.   I remember taking a load of truck parts for 1138 up to Elmira and being
>>>shown around.  I was incredibly impressed by the people who were doing the body
>>>work ... one of those men was welding new steel into 1138, grinding down the
>>>welds, and finishing it to a level of perfection unheard of for streetcar work.
>>>Certainly PRC could not have invested that time.  I found out that he had
>>>previously worked in an autobody repair shop.  And if I was lucky enough to have
>>>a 1930 Packard auto needing restoration, I would want him to do it.  I'm pretty
>>>sure they [Adtranz]  either bid or were considering a bid on the 18 rebuilt cars
>>>for SEPTA.  However, that plant was closed when Bombardier acquired Adtranz.
>>>
>>>
>>>Boris Cefer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>My experience says that no supervision is absolute. In addition, all people
>>>>like to make their job easier; some more, some less. Some even don't care
>>>>about results of their job. They don't care if something is done precisely
>>>>and thoroughly, or it is botched. I think that workmanship almost
>>>>disappeared from this world and only hobbyists dispose it. All is only job.
>>>>
>>>>I failed to understand Economics 101. OK. But I expected that working morals
>>>>has to be better in the USA than here because you seem to have better
>>>>economical results as a whole country.
>>>>I was again wrong. At shops in Philadelphia I didn't see many people
>>>>working, they were mostly sitting and talking about what they will do after
>>>>the shift ends in hour.
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Fred Schneider"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Your opinion is wrong.  They [Adtranz] did what they were told to do,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>under supervision from PTM.  I did not use the world asbestos ... you did.
>>>>But that was the issue.  Asbestos presents legal issues and its presence
>>>>causes the workers to follow legal and very expensive requirements for its
>>>>removal,, regardless of your opinion.   We are dealing with United States
>>>>and New York State and Pennsylvania health and safety laws.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>To make profits as high as possible is correct as far as you have taken it
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>... more correct would be to say to make any profit at all.  The money
>>>>simply wasn't there to make cars look nice.  The city made every effort
>>>>possible to control Pittsburgh Railways' income and in the 1960s to make
>>>>them loose money so that the county could condemn the private company at a
>>>>lower cost.   I think you fail to understand Economics 101 as it applies to
>>>>business in a free world economy.
>>>>