[PRCo] Re: I was in USA!

[Boris Cefer]

Fred,

Guess each made some relevant point, but nobody of us is absolutely correct.
I don't feel well in this atmosphere, so don't expect any more contribution
to this subject.

For the interested people, I will release some more observations from my
trip later today.

Boris

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Schneider" <fschnei at supernet.com>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 5:01 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: I was in USA!


> You're absolutely right Jim.  And of course what I observed in 36 years of
government
> service was also totally incorrect.
>
> "James B. Holland" wrote:
>
> > Your assessment of  *Government__Operated__Agencies*  is  NOthing more
> > than personal opinion // conclusions;  I-F  it was really that bad, then
> > the USA would have been down and out Very Long Ago.       """Everybody
> > knows it's this way"""   is the best evidence to support such
> > accusations and that would absolutely never ever hold up in court.
> >
> > Transit Agencies were on a downhill slide starting in the 1920s and that
> > slide greatly accelerated post WW2 with Very Wide Spread auto
> > usage.       Transit agencies were struggling but the thought of the day
> > in the 1940s and 1950s was that Private Transit Agencies were not able
> > to make it work so it was necessary to take them public  --  into govt.
> > sector.       AND__Today  the cry is:   govt. transit agencies don't
> > work  --  Privatize__Them!
> >
> > What people fail to realize is that it is  NOT  the system  --  it is
> > the people behind the system.       A case in Point  --  How Many Times
> > Have We Heard That:       """Money Is The Root Of All Evil?"""
> >
> > WRONG!!!!!!!       The above is a misquote  --  it is the  LOVE  of
> > money that is the root of all evil  --  it is human altitude toward
> > money that is evil  --  Not Money Itself.       Nothing Inherently Evil
> > in Private Enterprize, Socialism, and many other forms of society  --
> > it is just the people behind the same that make it work // fail.
> >
> > And to really level the playing field, It Is Written that all our
> > righteousness [goodness] is like filthy rags  --  and the word
> > translated  *rags*  is  *Menstrual__rags*  in the original
> > language.       Humans measure goodness relative to one another so in
> > reality, some may not be  *As__Bad__As*  others but the human condition
> > is still desperately wanting.       It is Not Just The Politicians  --
> > all are subject to the same temptations  --  put any one of us in there
> > and watch what happens over time.
> >
> > Remember  --  in the USA the govt. is:::::::
> >
> > """.......Of__The__People.......
> >
> > By__The__People.......
> >
> > For__The__People."""
> >
> > The People Are The Govt  --  The People Are The Problem.
> >
> > Jim__Holland
> >
> > Fred Schneider wrote:
> >
> > >I think you are comparing private enterprise to a government authority.
This is
> > >unfair in this instance because there is no commonality between the two
just
> > >because they are in the United States.   You should not compare the U.
S. to the
> > >Czech Republic; you need to compare private and government businesses
in the U.
> > >S. without any regard whatsoever to how something is done in Europe.
U. S.
> > >governmental transit agencies also behave very differently from those
in Europe.
> > >Private corporations borrowed money (stocks, bonds) to build a line,
and
> > >hopefully earned enough money by operating that line to cover all
operating
> > >expenses and to pay back all the loans.  It did not, in actuality, work
that
> > >way.  The totals for all the companies in Pennsylvania showed they had
enough
> > >money at the end of the year to pay bills on hand at the end of the
year in only
> > >four of the fifty-one years from 1900 to 1950.  But they were at least
set up
> > >with the idea that they would pay their bills.  And they either
controlled their
> > >expenses (labor, materials, interest, capital repayments, insurance,
taxes and
> > >so forth) or they went out of business.  And one way you controlled
costs was by
> > >not fixing things that didn't show.  You also didn't fix things on cars
that you
> > >planned to retire.  And by the time 1138 was retired, business was
declining
> > >rapidly enough that the railways company had a surplus of PCC cars and
could ill
> > >afford to waste money on any of the older ones.  We knew they were
rusted then.
> > >So did the railways company.  And Pullman Standard came in to
Pittsburgh in the
> > >early 1960s to assess a proposal to make double-end PCCs for
emergencies; my
> > >friend with the P-S told me then that only the 1700s were good enough
to invest
> > >money into and then they were only marginally good enough.
> > >
> > >Government operated agencies exist for the benefit neither of the
governed nor
> > >the users but to provide jobs for important government people and to
provide a
> > >conduit through which money is moved to support those people more
deserving of
> > >it than you or I.  It is not important if the people in the shops are
working or
> > >are not working.  What is important is that they or their union
contribute money
> > >to the politicians' reelection funds, that the equipment builders and
other
> > >contractors also contribute money.  It is important to the local
politicians
> > >that they control this huge agency that buys labor and materials and
issues
> > >contracts to consultants, car rebuilders, track rebuilders, and so
forth in
> > >order that some of that money might come back to the elected officials.
It is
> > >not called a bribe.  It is called a contribution to the reelection
campaign.
> > >
> > >One person on another list opined today that MBTA in Boston does not
want to
> > >have anything photographed because it might show someone doing nothing.
And he
> > >went on to relate an incident during his tenure when a mechanic at
Mattapan came
> > >to work drunk, watched television all day while he continued to drink.
His
> > >successor came in that afternoon and found that he had to repair five
dead PCCs
> > >in time for the evening rush.  He got a hammer and broke up the
television set.
> > >The incident turned into a fist fight.  Both were fired.  Then the
governor of
> > >the Commonwealth of Massachusetts order the MBTA to reinstate both to
their jobs
> > >(places to sit and collect money?).  Just maybe the order happened
because the
> > >transport workers union had passed a half million dollars into the
governor's
> > >reelection fund?  That was the suggestion I read today.  In Boston, the
union
> > >and the politicos run the show.  Obviously it wasn't the public or they
would
> > >not have gotten away with shutting down all the train service to the
north and
> > >all subway service to North Station last week during the Democratic
convention,
> > >and then running special trains from North Station and the end of the
convention
> > >each night.
> > >
> > >Virtually all of the major government owned transit authorities in the
United
> > >States were formed with in a very short time span in the late 1960s and
early
> > >1970s.  It probably would not have happened if government had to make
money.
> > >But I feel that this happened as fast as it did simply because the
politicians
> > >were totally aware of the value of the money they would control and
what it
> > >would buy them.
> > >
> > >The private and government systems are totally different ... one had to
make
> > >money to survive and the government agencies have the right to pick our
pockets
> > >to pay the people who do nothing.
> > >
> > >And do the workers care as you suggested?  My feeling is that about 9
workers
> > >out of 10 do not care about their jobs.  Only about one out of ten like
what
> > >they are doing, and would be happy to be there even without the money.
But in
> > >the case of the Adtranz people at Elmira who worked on PRC 1138 and
1711 and PTC
> > >2711, they were the good people that Adtranz wanted to maintain in case
they
> > >were able to win the next bid.  The others were gone and the plant was
mostly
> > >empty.   I remember taking a load of truck parts for 1138 up to Elmira
and being
> > >shown around.  I was incredibly impressed by the people who were doing
the body
> > >work ... one of those men was welding new steel into 1138, grinding
down the
> > >welds, and finishing it to a level of perfection unheard of for
streetcar work.
> > >Certainly PRC could not have invested that time.  I found out that he
had
> > >previously worked in an autobody repair shop.  And if I was lucky
enough to have
> > >a 1930 Packard auto needing restoration, I would want him to do it.
I'm pretty
> > >sure they [Adtranz]  either bid or were considering a bid on the 18
rebuilt cars
> > >for SEPTA.  However, that plant was closed when Bombardier acquired
Adtranz.
> > >
> > >
> > >Boris Cefer wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>My experience says that no supervision is absolute. In addition, all
people
> > >>like to make their job easier; some more, some less. Some even don't
care
> > >>about results of their job. They don't care if something is done
precisely
> > >>and thoroughly, or it is botched. I think that workmanship almost
> > >>disappeared from this world and only hobbyists dispose it. All is only
job.
> > >>
> > >>I failed to understand Economics 101. OK. But I expected that working
morals
> > >>has to be better in the USA than here because you seem to have better
> > >>economical results as a whole country.
> > >>I was again wrong. At shops in Philadelphia I didn't see many people
> > >>working, they were mostly sitting and talking about what they will do
after
> > >>the shift ends in hour.
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: "Fred Schneider"
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Your opinion is wrong.  They [Adtranz] did what they were told to do,
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>under supervision from PTM.  I did not use the world asbestos ... you
did.
> > >>But that was the issue.  Asbestos presents legal issues and its
presence
> > >>causes the workers to follow legal and very expensive requirements for
its
> > >>removal,, regardless of your opinion.   We are dealing with United
States
> > >>and New York State and Pennsylvania health and safety laws.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>To make profits as high as possible is correct as far as you have
taken it
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>... more correct would be to say to make any profit at all.  The money
> > >>simply wasn't there to make cars look nice.  The city made every
effort
> > >>possible to control Pittsburgh Railways' income and in the 1960s to
make
> > >>them loose money so that the county could condemn the private company
at a
> > >>lower cost.   I think you fail to understand Economics 101 as it
applies to
> > >>business in a free world economy.
> > >>
> > >>
>
>
>
>