[PRCo] Re: I was in USA!
James B. Holland
PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com
Tue Aug 3 18:06:18 EDT 2004
AGREED!
So can one then assume that you believe that govt was Not Formed For
Personal enhancement but that Pimples -- excuse me, People --
corrupted same???????
Fred Schneider wrote:
>Doesn't matter how idealistic the founding fathers may have been. Shit happens.
>
>"James B. Holland" wrote:
>
>
>
>>Our govt. was founded on the Checks and Balances system with a
>>Legislative, Exec, and Judicial branches of govt. Because the Founding
>>Fathers recognized that the lowest common denominator in the Govt.
>>Equation -- PEOPLE -- can misuse power // authority // etc.
>>Govt. was Not Founded for the reasons you listed -- what you mention
>>is strictly observations on how People misuse this power and look for
>>loop holes to get around laws meant to protect freedoms. There is
>>a Big Difference in the Founding of Govt. and its execution.
>>
>>It is NOT any different in private enterprize -- I have spent
>>28+Years as Public Servant (add 4+ years of military) for total of
>>32+Years Public Servant, 12-Years Private Enterprize. The lowest
>>common denominator in business is People again and People look for
>>ways to get around the laws -- Just As YOU and I look for
>>loopholes in the tax laws.
>>
>>Just The Fact that we have Laws To Protect reveals there is someone to
>>Protect Against.
>>
>>We have laws to prevent monopolies -- Human People Greed.
>>
>>We have patent laws to prevent inventions from being stolen / copied /
>>otherwise abused.
>>
>>Unions formed because of greed // BAD Management.
>>
>>The List goes On, and On and On.................
>>
>>Again, the System is not necessarily bad, Our Govt. was Not Formed For
>>the Purposes You Listed Below, and The Lowest Common Denominator in any
>>// all systems is PEOPLE and the individual and collective
>>righteousness of People is Filthy Rags -- this is where we need to
>>work to correct any problems -- Public, Private -- and everything
>>and anything in between.
>>
>>Jim__Holland
>>
>>Fred Schneider wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>You're absolutely right Jim. And of course what I observed in 36 years of government
>>>service was also totally incorrect.
>>>
>>>"James B. Holland" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Your assessment of *Government__Operated__Agencies* is NOthing more
>>>>than personal opinion // conclusions; I-F it was really that bad, then
>>>>the USA would have been down and out Very Long Ago. """Everybody
>>>>knows it's this way""" is the best evidence to support such
>>>>accusations and that would absolutely never ever hold up in court.
>>>>
>>>>Transit Agencies were on a downhill slide starting in the 1920s and that
>>>>slide greatly accelerated post WW2 with Very Wide Spread auto
>>>>usage. Transit agencies were struggling but the thought of the day
>>>>in the 1940s and 1950s was that Private Transit Agencies were not able
>>>>to make it work so it was necessary to take them public -- into govt.
>>>>sector. AND__Today the cry is: govt. transit agencies don't
>>>>work -- Privatize__Them!
>>>>
>>>>What people fail to realize is that it is NOT the system -- it is
>>>>the people behind the system. A case in Point -- How Many Times
>>>>Have We Heard That: """Money Is The Root Of All Evil?"""
>>>>
>>>>WRONG!!!!!!! The above is a misquote -- it is the LOVE of
>>>>money that is the root of all evil -- it is human altitude toward
>>>>money that is evil -- Not Money Itself. Nothing Inherently Evil
>>>>in Private Enterprize, Socialism, and many other forms of society --
>>>>it is just the people behind the same that make it work // fail.
>>>>
>>>>And to really level the playing field, It Is Written that all our
>>>>righteousness [goodness] is like filthy rags -- and the word
>>>>translated *rags* is *Menstrual__rags* in the original
>>>>language. Humans measure goodness relative to one another so in
>>>>reality, some may not be *As__Bad__As* others but the human condition
>>>>is still desperately wanting. It is Not Just The Politicians --
>>>>all are subject to the same temptations -- put any one of us in there
>>>>and watch what happens over time.
>>>>
>>>>Remember -- in the USA the govt. is:::::::
>>>>
>>>>""".......Of__The__People.......
>>>>
>>>>By__The__People.......
>>>>
>>>>For__The__People."""
>>>>
>>>>The People Are The Govt -- The People Are The Problem.
>>>>
>>>>Jim__Holland
>>>>
>>>>Fred Schneider wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I think you are comparing private enterprise to a government authority. This is
>>>>>unfair in this instance because there is no commonality between the two just
>>>>>because they are in the United States. You should not compare the U. S. to the
>>>>>Czech Republic; you need to compare private and government businesses in the U.
>>>>>S. without any regard whatsoever to how something is done in Europe. U. S.
>>>>>governmental transit agencies also behave very differently from those in Europe.
>>>>>Private corporations borrowed money (stocks, bonds) to build a line, and
>>>>>hopefully earned enough money by operating that line to cover all operating
>>>>>expenses and to pay back all the loans. It did not, in actuality, work that
>>>>>way. The totals for all the companies in Pennsylvania showed they had enough
>>>>>money at the end of the year to pay bills on hand at the end of the year in only
>>>>>four of the fifty-one years from 1900 to 1950. But they were at least set up
>>>>>with the idea that they would pay their bills. And they either controlled their
>>>>>expenses (labor, materials, interest, capital repayments, insurance, taxes and
>>>>>so forth) or they went out of business. And one way you controlled costs was by
>>>>>not fixing things that didn't show. You also didn't fix things on cars that you
>>>>>planned to retire. And by the time 1138 was retired, business was declining
>>>>>rapidly enough that the railways company had a surplus of PCC cars and could ill
>>>>>afford to waste money on any of the older ones. We knew they were rusted then.
>>>>>So did the railways company. And Pullman Standard came in to Pittsburgh in the
>>>>>early 1960s to assess a proposal to make double-end PCCs for emergencies; my
>>>>>friend with the P-S told me then that only the 1700s were good enough to invest
>>>>>money into and then they were only marginally good enough.
>>>>>
>>>>>Government operated agencies exist for the benefit neither of the governed nor
>>>>>the users but to provide jobs for important government people and to provide a
>>>>>conduit through which money is moved to support those people more deserving of
>>>>>it than you or I. It is not important if the people in the shops are working or
>>>>>are not working. What is important is that they or their union contribute money
>>>>>to the politicians' reelection funds, that the equipment builders and other
>>>>>contractors also contribute money. It is important to the local politicians
>>>>>that they control this huge agency that buys labor and materials and issues
>>>>>contracts to consultants, car rebuilders, track rebuilders, and so forth in
>>>>>order that some of that money might come back to the elected officials. It is
>>>>>not called a bribe. It is called a contribution to the reelection campaign.
>>>>>
>>>>>One person on another list opined today that MBTA in Boston does not want to
>>>>>have anything photographed because it might show someone doing nothing. And he
>>>>>went on to relate an incident during his tenure when a mechanic at Mattapan came
>>>>>to work drunk, watched television all day while he continued to drink. His
>>>>>successor came in that afternoon and found that he had to repair five dead PCCs
>>>>>in time for the evening rush. He got a hammer and broke up the television set.
>>>>>The incident turned into a fist fight. Both were fired. Then the governor of
>>>>>the Commonwealth of Massachusetts order the MBTA to reinstate both to their jobs
>>>>>(places to sit and collect money?). Just maybe the order happened because the
>>>>>transport workers union had passed a half million dollars into the governor's
>>>>>reelection fund? That was the suggestion I read today. In Boston, the union
>>>>>and the politicos run the show. Obviously it wasn't the public or they would
>>>>>not have gotten away with shutting down all the train service to the north and
>>>>>all subway service to North Station last week during the Democratic convention,
>>>>>and then running special trains from North Station and the end of the convention
>>>>>each night.
>>>>>
>>>>>Virtually all of the major government owned transit authorities in the United
>>>>>States were formed with in a very short time span in the late 1960s and early
>>>>>1970s. It probably would not have happened if government had to make money.
>>>>>But I feel that this happened as fast as it did simply because the politicians
>>>>>were totally aware of the value of the money they would control and what it
>>>>>would buy them.
>>>>>
>>>>>The private and government systems are totally different ... one had to make
>>>>>money to survive and the government agencies have the right to pick our pockets
>>>>>to pay the people who do nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>>And do the workers care as you suggested? My feeling is that about 9 workers
>>>>>out of 10 do not care about their jobs. Only about one out of ten like what
>>>>>they are doing, and would be happy to be there even without the money. But in
>>>>>the case of the Adtranz people at Elmira who worked on PRC 1138 and 1711 and PTC
>>>>>2711, they were the good people that Adtranz wanted to maintain in case they
>>>>>were able to win the next bid. The others were gone and the plant was mostly
>>>>>empty. I remember taking a load of truck parts for 1138 up to Elmira and being
>>>>>shown around. I was incredibly impressed by the people who were doing the body
>>>>>work ... one of those men was welding new steel into 1138, grinding down the
>>>>>welds, and finishing it to a level of perfection unheard of for streetcar work.
>>>>>Certainly PRC could not have invested that time. I found out that he had
>>>>>previously worked in an autobody repair shop. And if I was lucky enough to have
>>>>>a 1930 Packard auto needing restoration, I would want him to do it. I'm pretty
>>>>>sure they [Adtranz] either bid or were considering a bid on the 18 rebuilt cars
>>>>>for SEPTA. However, that plant was closed when Bombardier acquired Adtranz.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Boris Cefer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>My experience says that no supervision is absolute. In addition, all people
>>>>>>like to make their job easier; some more, some less. Some even don't care
>>>>>>about results of their job. They don't care if something is done precisely
>>>>>>and thoroughly, or it is botched. I think that workmanship almost
>>>>>>disappeared from this world and only hobbyists dispose it. All is only job.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I failed to understand Economics 101. OK. But I expected that working morals
>>>>>>has to be better in the USA than here because you seem to have better
>>>>>>economical results as a whole country.
>>>>>>I was again wrong. At shops in Philadelphia I didn't see many people
>>>>>>working, they were mostly sitting and talking about what they will do after
>>>>>>the shift ends in hour.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Fred Schneider"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Your opinion is wrong. They [Adtranz] did what they were told to do,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>under supervision from PTM. I did not use the world asbestos ... you did.
>>>>>>But that was the issue. Asbestos presents legal issues and its presence
>>>>>>causes the workers to follow legal and very expensive requirements for its
>>>>>>removal,, regardless of your opinion. We are dealing with United States
>>>>>>and New York State and Pennsylvania health and safety laws.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>To make profits as high as possible is correct as far as you have taken it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>... more correct would be to say to make any profit at all. The money
>>>>>>simply wasn't there to make cars look nice. The city made every effort
>>>>>>possible to control Pittsburgh Railways' income and in the 1960s to make
>>>>>>them loose money so that the county could condemn the private company at a
>>>>>>lower cost. I think you fail to understand Economics 101 as it applies to
>>>>>>business in a free world economy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
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