[PRCo] Re: I was in USA!

[Fred Schneider]

I don't think we really know what happened because our written history has been so
corrupted.  Suggest reading Lies My Teacher Taught Me by Richard Lowen.  And after you read
that read Lies Across America by the same author.  We know what our history books tell us,
such as George Washington was an unwilling draftee for commander of the Revolutionary war.
Other sources say that he put on a uniform and walked around the continental congress for
days drumming up support to have himself named commander.  Our text books tell us that the
winter at Valley Forge was horribly bitter but weather records show it to be one of the
warmest winters in years (Washington was telling how bad it was to drum up more money).  Our
high school teachers also told us just how the people rallied behind the cause of separation
from England, but other sources tell us just how bad desertion from the Continental Army
really was.  Believe what you want.
I guess I believe that the founding fathers were both idalistic and humanly corrupt at the
same time.  Maybe they thought it would work OK.  Maybe it was screwed up after that time.
And maybe it was the only option inspite of the screw ups.  Just like FDR knew that welfare
would create an idle class but he knew no way to get around it.  But what thing that was a
given then was that the senators, representatives and the president believed their jobs were
part-time and they would go back home the rest of the year to listen to their constituents
and tend to their other businesses (off which they earned money to live).  The Swiss still
work that way (Parliament is in session one week every quarter).  But some how we turned it
into a money making deal for the elected officials.  And you and I have no chance in hell of
being represented.  Last year I encountered quite by accident in the stacks in the
government documents section of the state library in Harrisburg a copy of a directory to
lobbyists in Harrisburg ... all listed for anyone to see ... and it was the size of the
Centre County telephone directory.  That means a similar directory for lobbyists in
Washington DC must be the size of the San Francisco phone book!  And every one of those son
of a bitches buys lunch for the lobbyists or tosses money into their election campaign.


Knowing what was actually going on in the minds of Jefferson, Hancock, Washington, Franklin
and all the others is probably about as easy to discern what goes on in a sccret high level
corporate or government meeting today.  Do you believe Tom Ridge is honest?  Or do you
believe he is saying what Bush wants him to say?  Or perhaps what he thinks Bush wants him
to say?  I can only say I didn't like him in Pennsyhlvania so why should I trust him in D.
C?

I think the difference between your 32 years in government and my 36 was that you are an
employee in the trenches and I was up high enough to see how it functioned.   I started out
under an L&I district manager in York who was absolutely unique ... he had enough clout of
his own that Harrisburg never forced any one on him that he didn't want.  He ran his region
like a private business.  Do you job well and you could be promoted.  Fuck up and, in spite
of all the protections, he knew how to bounce you out on the street.  In 1978 I moved into a
statewide auditing job and discovered just how unique Roy was.  Everyone else in the state
knew just which political hack to run to to keep his job.  The manager in Philly never
handled technical issues; he focused his entire day on personnel issues often started by his
people going to ward healers because they didn't get what they wanted or because someone
looked at them crooked.  Damn did I get my eyes opened.  I remember after doing an audit in
Williamsport, I found the entire Masonic order in northern Pennsylvania brought down on me
... that was that regional directors way to make me say uncle and retract what I had
written.  It didn't work but he sure tried.  (And the reason it didn't work had nothing to
do with him or me but with another employee who worked for us and who could not be upset.)

And I don't believe that California is any better ... perhaps worse because it has twice as
many people.  From business meetings with people from all over the U. S., I concluded that
the good states were the small homogenous ones like Utah and Wyoming.

I am actually glad I'm out of it.  And I've felt sorry for many of my friends in the transit
industry who plodded along trying to make something work ... Norm Vutz, Russ Jackson, Phil
Craig and on and on and on.  You simply would not believe the stories.  Well maybe you
would.

"James B. Holland" wrote:

> AGREED!
>
> So can one then assume that you believe that govt was Not Formed For
> Personal enhancement but that  Pimples  --  excuse me, People  --
> corrupted same???????
>
> Fred Schneider wrote:
>
> >Doesn't matter how idealistic the founding fathers may have been.  Shit happens.
> >
> >"James B. Holland" wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Our govt. was founded on the Checks and Balances system with a
> >>Legislative, Exec, and Judicial branches of govt. Because the Founding
> >>Fathers recognized that the lowest common denominator in the Govt.
> >>Equation  --  PEOPLE  --  can misuse power // authority // etc.
> >>Govt. was Not Founded for the reasons you listed  --  what you mention
> >>is strictly observations on how People misuse this power and look for
> >>loop holes to get around laws meant to protect freedoms.       There is
> >>a Big Difference in the Founding of Govt. and its execution.
> >>
> >>It is  NOT  any different in private enterprize  --  I have spent
> >>28+Years as Public Servant (add 4+ years of military) for total of
> >>32+Years Public Servant, 12-Years Private Enterprize.       The lowest
> >>common denominator in business is  People again and  People  look for
> >>ways to get around the laws  --  Just As  YOU  and  I  look for
> >>loopholes in the tax laws.
> >>
> >>Just The Fact that we have Laws To Protect reveals there is someone to
> >>Protect Against.
> >>
> >>We have laws to prevent monopolies  --  Human People Greed.
> >>
> >>We have patent laws to prevent inventions from being stolen / copied /
> >>otherwise abused.
> >>
> >>Unions formed because of greed // BAD  Management.
> >>
> >>The List goes On, and On and On.................
> >>
> >>Again, the System is not necessarily bad, Our Govt. was Not Formed For
> >>the Purposes You Listed Below, and The Lowest Common Denominator in any
> >>// all systems is  PEOPLE  and the individual and collective
> >>righteousness of People is Filthy Rags  --  this is where we need to
> >>work to correct any problems  --  Public, Private  --  and everything
> >>and anything in between.
> >>
> >>Jim__Holland
> >>
> >>Fred Schneider wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>You're absolutely right Jim.  And of course what I observed in 36 years of government
> >>>service was also totally incorrect.
> >>>
> >>>"James B. Holland" wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Your assessment of  *Government__Operated__Agencies*  is  NOthing more
> >>>>than personal opinion // conclusions;  I-F  it was really that bad, then
> >>>>the USA would have been down and out Very Long Ago.       """Everybody
> >>>>knows it's this way"""   is the best evidence to support such
> >>>>accusations and that would absolutely never ever hold up in court.
> >>>>
> >>>>Transit Agencies were on a downhill slide starting in the 1920s and that
> >>>>slide greatly accelerated post WW2 with Very Wide Spread auto
> >>>>usage.       Transit agencies were struggling but the thought of the day
> >>>>in the 1940s and 1950s was that Private Transit Agencies were not able
> >>>>to make it work so it was necessary to take them public  --  into govt.
> >>>>sector.       AND__Today  the cry is:   govt. transit agencies don't
> >>>>work  --  Privatize__Them!
> >>>>
> >>>>What people fail to realize is that it is  NOT  the system  --  it is
> >>>>the people behind the system.       A case in Point  --  How Many Times
> >>>>Have We Heard That:       """Money Is The Root Of All Evil?"""
> >>>>
> >>>>WRONG!!!!!!!       The above is a misquote  --  it is the  LOVE  of
> >>>>money that is the root of all evil  --  it is human altitude toward
> >>>>money that is evil  --  Not Money Itself.       Nothing Inherently Evil
> >>>>in Private Enterprize, Socialism, and many other forms of society  --
> >>>>it is just the people behind the same that make it work // fail.
> >>>>
> >>>>And to really level the playing field, It Is Written that all our
> >>>>righteousness [goodness] is like filthy rags  --  and the word
> >>>>translated  *rags*  is  *Menstrual__rags*  in the original
> >>>>language.       Humans measure goodness relative to one another so in
> >>>>reality, some may not be  *As__Bad__As*  others but the human condition
> >>>>is still desperately wanting.       It is Not Just The Politicians  --
> >>>>all are subject to the same temptations  --  put any one of us in there
> >>>>and watch what happens over time.
> >>>>
> >>>>Remember  --  in the USA the govt. is:::::::
> >>>>
> >>>>""".......Of__The__People.......
> >>>>
> >>>>By__The__People.......
> >>>>
> >>>>For__The__People."""
> >>>>
> >>>>The People Are The Govt  --  The People Are The Problem.
> >>>>
> >>>>Jim__Holland
> >>>>
> >>>>Fred Schneider wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I think you are comparing private enterprise to a government authority.  This is
> >>>>>unfair in this instance because there is no commonality between the two just
> >>>>>because they are in the United States.   You should not compare the U. S. to the
> >>>>>Czech Republic; you need to compare private and government businesses in the U.
> >>>>>S. without any regard whatsoever to how something is done in Europe.  U. S.
> >>>>>governmental transit agencies also behave very differently from those in Europe.
> >>>>>Private corporations borrowed money (stocks, bonds) to build a line, and
> >>>>>hopefully earned enough money by operating that line to cover all operating
> >>>>>expenses and to pay back all the loans.  It did not, in actuality, work that
> >>>>>way.  The totals for all the companies in Pennsylvania showed they had  enough
> >>>>>money at the end of the year to pay bills on hand at the end of the year in only
> >>>>>four of the fifty-one years from 1900 to 1950.  But they were at least set up
> >>>>>with the idea that they would pay their bills.  And they either controlled their
> >>>>>expenses (labor, materials, interest, capital repayments, insurance, taxes and
> >>>>>so forth) or they went out of business.  And one way you controlled costs was by
> >>>>>not fixing things that didn't show.  You also didn't fix things on cars that you
> >>>>>planned to retire.  And by the time 1138 was retired, business was declining
> >>>>>rapidly enough that the railways company had a surplus of PCC cars and could ill
> >>>>>afford to waste money on any of the older ones.  We knew they were rusted then.
> >>>>>So did the railways company.  And Pullman Standard came in to Pittsburgh in the
> >>>>>early 1960s to assess a proposal to make double-end PCCs for emergencies; my
> >>>>>friend with the P-S told me then that only the 1700s were good enough to invest
> >>>>>money into and then they were only marginally good enough.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Government operated agencies exist for the benefit neither of the governed nor
> >>>>>the users but to provide jobs for important government people and to provide a
> >>>>>conduit through which money is moved to support those people more deserving of
> >>>>>it than you or I.  It is not important if the people in the shops are working or
> >>>>>are not working.  What is important is that they or their union contribute money
> >>>>>to the politicians' reelection funds, that the equipment builders and other
> >>>>>contractors also contribute money.  It is important to the local politicians
> >>>>>that they control this huge agency that buys labor and materials and issues
> >>>>>contracts to consultants, car rebuilders, track rebuilders, and so forth in
> >>>>>order that some of that money might come back to the elected officials.  It is
> >>>>>not called a bribe.  It is called a contribution to the reelection campaign.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>One person on another list opined today that MBTA in Boston does not want to
> >>>>>have anything photographed because it might show someone doing nothing.  And he
> >>>>>went on to relate an incident during his tenure when a mechanic at Mattapan came
> >>>>>to work drunk, watched television all day while he continued to drink.  His
> >>>>>successor came in that afternoon and found that he had to repair five dead PCCs
> >>>>>in time for the evening rush.  He got a hammer and broke up the television set.
> >>>>>The incident turned into a fist fight.  Both were fired.  Then the governor of
> >>>>>the Commonwealth of Massachusetts order the MBTA to reinstate both to their jobs
> >>>>>(places to sit and collect money?).  Just maybe the order happened because the
> >>>>>transport workers union had passed a half million dollars into the governor's
> >>>>>reelection fund?  That was the suggestion I read today.  In Boston, the union
> >>>>>and the politicos run the show.  Obviously it wasn't the public or they would
> >>>>>not have gotten away with shutting down all the train service to the north and
> >>>>>all subway service to North Station last week during the Democratic convention,
> >>>>>and then running special trains from North Station and the end of the convention
> >>>>>each night.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Virtually all of the major government owned transit authorities in the United
> >>>>>States were formed with in a very short time span in the late 1960s and early
> >>>>>1970s.  It probably would not have happened if government had to make money.
> >>>>>But I feel that this happened as fast as it did simply because the politicians
> >>>>>were totally aware of the value of the money they would control and what it
> >>>>>would buy them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The private and government systems are totally different ... one had to make
> >>>>>money to survive and the government agencies have the right to pick our pockets
> >>>>>to pay the people who do nothing.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>And do the workers care as you suggested?  My feeling is that about 9 workers
> >>>>>out of 10 do not care about their jobs.  Only about one out of ten like what
> >>>>>they are doing, and would be happy to be there even without the money.  But in
> >>>>>the case of the Adtranz people at Elmira who worked on PRC 1138 and 1711 and PTC
> >>>>>2711, they were the good people that Adtranz wanted to maintain in case they
> >>>>>were able to win the next bid.  The others were gone and the plant was mostly
> >>>>>empty.   I remember taking a load of truck parts for 1138 up to Elmira and being
> >>>>>shown around.  I was incredibly impressed by the people who were doing the body
> >>>>>work ... one of those men was welding new steel into 1138, grinding down the
> >>>>>welds, and finishing it to a level of perfection unheard of for streetcar work.
> >>>>>Certainly PRC could not have invested that time.  I found out that he had
> >>>>>previously worked in an autobody repair shop.  And if I was lucky enough to have
> >>>>>a 1930 Packard auto needing restoration, I would want him to do it.  I'm pretty
> >>>>>sure they [Adtranz]  either bid or were considering a bid on the 18 rebuilt cars
> >>>>>for SEPTA.  However, that plant was closed when Bombardier acquired Adtranz.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Boris Cefer wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>My experience says that no supervision is absolute. In addition, all people
> >>>>>>like to make their job easier; some more, some less. Some even don't care
> >>>>>>about results of their job. They don't care if something is done precisely
> >>>>>>and thoroughly, or it is botched. I think that workmanship almost
> >>>>>>disappeared from this world and only hobbyists dispose it. All is only job.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I failed to understand Economics 101. OK. But I expected that working morals
> >>>>>>has to be better in the USA than here because you seem to have better
> >>>>>>economical results as a whole country.
> >>>>>>I was again wrong. At shops in Philadelphia I didn't see many people
> >>>>>>working, they were mostly sitting and talking about what they will do after
> >>>>>>the shift ends in hour.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>From: "Fred Schneider"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Your opinion is wrong.  They [Adtranz] did what they were told to do,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>under supervision from PTM.  I did not use the world asbestos ... you did.
> >>>>>>But that was the issue.  Asbestos presents legal issues and its presence
> >>>>>>causes the workers to follow legal and very expensive requirements for its
> >>>>>>removal,, regardless of your opinion.   We are dealing with United States
> >>>>>>and New York State and Pennsylvania health and safety laws.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>To make profits as high as possible is correct as far as you have taken it
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>... more correct would be to say to make any profit at all.  The money
> >>>>>>simply wasn't there to make cars look nice.  The city made every effort
> >>>>>>possible to control Pittsburgh Railways' income and in the 1960s to make
> >>>>>>them loose money so that the county could condemn the private company at a
> >>>>>>lower cost.   I think you fail to understand Economics 101 as it applies to
> >>>>>>business in a free world economy.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >