[PRCo] Re: 1936___Flood -Verona

Tue Mar 2 20:27:19 EST 2004

Greetings
Bus Transportation was separate.  Not part of Transit journal. but
it was a McGraw Hill publication.

Lasted into the 50's or 60's.

 An advt in Bus Transportation is what brought me to Pgh.
I advertisied a situation wanted advt in 1949 when I gradiuated from
NYU.   Received 3 answers..From Montour Motor Coach, from Lester Lines
in upsate NY and from Batavia NY.  Batavia was a family owned business
and Lester Lines was more of a school bus operator.  So it was Montour.
Montour was owned by Harrison-Shields truck lines at 36th Street and the
A Valley RR.  They also owned Citizens Transit in Oil City.

Harold Geissenheimer

Fred Schneider wrote:

>Harold:
>
>The magazine started out as Street Railway Journal in 1884, then changed to Electric
>Railway Journal, then later to Transit Journal.  It expired in 1944.  Or did it?  Did
>Bus Transportation start in 1944 as a direct successor to Transit Journal?
>
>Harold Geissenheimer wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Fred and all
>>I was 15 years old in 1943 when I found an Electric Ry Journal copy
>>in a used magazine store in NY.  The McGraw Hill Bldg was on 42d
>>street so I went over there after school to buy a copy.  The guard in
>>the lobby referred me to their library up stairs.  I learned that they
>>had the entire set still on file.  I went up...found the librarin very
>>suspicous of me.  Convinced he that really was interested.
>>
>>She found me a bound copy of the previous year and she hovered
>>over me while read parts of it.  Each time I came back, she was less
>>guarded.  Eventually she even told me about their magazine Bus
>>Transportation.
>>
>>I was in.
>>
>>For the next 5 or 6 years, I would stop by and  glance at another year
>>or so.
>>A wonderfull experience...going back to horse car days and finally the
>>Tranasit
>>Journal.  A real benefit of my growing up on Manhattan Island.
>>
>>The green McGraw Hill bldg is still there on 42d Street near the bus
>>terminal.  MH moved elsewhere.  A bit of history, the Hill Bldg (Before
>>merger) is still there at 36th Street and 10th Ave)
>>
>>I really appreciated the interest of these librarians.
>>
>>Harold Geissenheimer
>>
>>Fred Schneider wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Matt:
>>>
>>>Twenty years ago I bought the entire Electric Railway Journal (actually three
>>>names) on microfilm but I never read more than certain parts when I was looking for
>>>something.
>>>
>>>Recently I was looking for something on the first safety car, which Harold Cox said
>>>was built for Illinois Traction ... a split order for their city systems in Topeka,
>>>Qunicy and one other city.  Never found what I wanted because safety cars were not
>>>a paramount concern ... a car that would stop itself wasn't important enough in
>>>1913 to waste ink and paper.
>>>
>>>What did surprise me were the number of proposed trolley lines ... tons of them and
>>>most were never built.  Some were listed month after month as "in progress" or
>>>"approved" or "construction will begin next week" or "being built" or "under
>>>construction and will open soon."   We know that most trolley construction ended
>>>because of the 1907 financial panic.  Yet the proposals and searches for money
>>>didn't end.   Yet by 1913 most of them never were any more than dreams.  There was
>>>one in the Bloomsburg - Berwick area that was reporting progress from 1910 to at
>>>least 1914 but not a shovel of dirt was ever turned.  But the number of proposed
>>>lines dropped rapidly around 1913-1914.  By 1914 you could go weeks between
>>>proposals.  Wonder how this keys to the knowledge that Henry Ford put his first
>>>primitive assembly line to work in 1913, and began continuous chain assembly line
>>>work in 1914.  All of a sudden Ford was churning out Tin Lizzies by more than
>>>100,000 in a year.
>>>
>>>So if the line up Frankstown Road was proposed that late, it didn't have a chance.
>>>
>>>I remember the rails in the yellow brick street in Oakmont when I was a kid ... now
>>>we're talking ten years after abandonment.  I can assure you that they were no
>>>longer there when I went back for my aunt's funeral about five years ago.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Matt Barry wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Fred,
>>>>My nephews and I never spoke of the Verona line until they told me they
>>>>found what they thought was old railroad trackage in that area on the
>>>>hillside where the auto junk yard is located.  So, I have no reason to
>>>>doubt them or think it was "urban rumor."
>>>>
>>>>You may be correct about the Frankstown Road connection.  But I based my
>>>>thoughts on later years when that section of Frankstown Road was booming
>>>>with East Hills shopping center, and other businesses that lined the
>>>>road up to Verona Road.
>>>>
>>>>Fred Schneider wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>I could look it up in the route cards ... again, that means lifting and I
>>>>>don't do that well right now.  Give me time.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, there was a fairly substantial trestle over Sandy Creek.    The trestle
>>>>>was on the north side of Verona Road and therefore not over Sandy Creek Road.
>>>>>There were two roads that went up to two different points on Frankstown Road;
>>>>>one was Coal Hollow Road and the other was Lime Hollow Road.  They came
>>>>>together about a block from Verona Road, and I'm not sure what name prevailed
>>>>>out to the intersection.
>>>>>
>>>>>Track on the hillside in the 1980s?  Urban rumor.  It wasn't there in 1966
>>>>>when I walked the decaying right-of-way.   Ties?  PRC believed in
>>>>>non-creosoted ties.  I doubt that any of them survived 30 or 40 years beyond
>>>>>abandonment.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sorry to burst the bubble but I also fail to comprehend how a connecting link
>>>>>on Frankstown Road from Laketon Road at Eastwood to Homewood would have made
>>>>>the line any more viable.  That area was suburban with widely spaced houses.
>>>>>There wasn't enough business to warrant Mr. Deere to run a bus more often than
>>>>>every hour.  That area was the second fastest growing suburb in Pennsylvania
>>>>>(second to Levittown, Bucks County) after World War II.  But it was farm
>>>>>country in 1937.  I lived there!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Matt Barry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>You mentioned the Verona line, Fred.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I believe the Verona line was abandoned in 1937.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What does the group know about this line?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I know bits and pieces, and please correct me if I am wrong about these.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It began it's routing at Braddock and Forbes Avenue.  Travelling through
>>>>>>Wilkinsburg to Laketon Road, then up Monitor and then onto prw alongside
>>>>>>Verona Road.   My nephews, who used to romp through that section of Penn
>>>>>>Hills in their youth in the 1980's, tell me there were still ties and
>>>>>>some trackage on the hillside next to Verona Road, between Frankstown
>>>>>>Road and Sandy Creek Road.  That portion also held junked automobiles at
>>>>>>that time -- perhaps it still does to this day.   (Hmmm...junked
>>>>>>automobiles on abandoned trolley tracks, how ironic.) A map in the
>>>>>>waiting room of  McCrackin Ford on McKnight Road in the North Hills
>>>>>>shows a the carline pathway in that area,  and it is labelled "old
>>>>>>Verona carline."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When the line neared the intersection of Verona Road and Sandy Creek
>>>>>>Road, it would seem to me that there may have been a trestle to carry it
>>>>>>over this intersection.   Anyone know?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>>From there, I believe the line crossed over Verona Road and went down
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>Third Street either directly on Third or on paralleling prw.  It dipped
>>>>>>down into Verona and from there, I don't exactly know how it made it's
>>>>>>way into Oakmont.  I have read stories in Oakmont and Verona history
>>>>>>booklets that briefly describe some stories about the bridge or bridges
>>>>>>that carried the cars into Oakmont from Verona, as troublesome.
>>>>>>Apparently they were wooden and prone to fires.   The stories are sketchy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In the late 1960's, I distinctly recall seeing the last segment of
>>>>>>Allegheny River Blvd,  in Oakmont near Hulton Road, as being yellow
>>>>>>brick with a section of black asphalt going straight up the middle of
>>>>>>it.   Seeing this, I assumed that beneath that asphalt lie a single line
>>>>>>car track.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I also know that early route planners were considering connecting up the
>>>>>>88/87 trackage on Frankstown Avenue in Homewood, with the Verona
>>>>>>trackage.  Of course, it never happened, but had it it happened, one
>>>>>>wonders if the route would have lasted beyond 1937.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Matt
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Fred Schneider wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My parents lived in a rented home in Oakmont at the time.   Dad took
>>>>>>>quite a few pictures of Oakmont and Verona in the flood.  Sadly, as he
>>>>>>>got older the mind was no longer clear.  He threw everything out without
>>>>>>>the slightest question about their value.   There is a common picture
>>>>>>>that the Pittsburgh Press published (the marooned photographer probably
>>>>>>>walked out of their inbound loading dock onto the Pennsylvania Railroad
>>>>>>>elevated) showing a streetcar on Liberty or Penn in water up to the roof
>>>>>>>carlines (that would be something above nine feet of water on the
>>>>>>>street).   I think I may have the newspapers but finding them in this
>>>>>>>pit is problematic.
>>>>>>>As I recall from the route cards, every route was shut down which
>>>>>>>implies not that every line was under water but that the Duquesne Light
>>>>>>>plant on Brunot's Island was inundated.   The Oakmont - Verona line was
>>>>>>>never restored to service but that needs more research to determine if
>>>>>>>it was flood related or not.  The actually route was mostly above flood
>>>>>>>stage and also in paved streets in the Allegheny River valley.  If there
>>>>>>>was any flood damage, it might have been from gullies that fed
>>>>>>>tributaries to the Allegheny such as Sandy Creek.  I think think that
>>>>>>>line had simply expired from an overdose of gasoline.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
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