[PRCo] Re: 1936___Flood -Verona

[Fred Schneider]

Harold:

The magazine started out as Street Railway Journal in 1884, then changed to Electric
Railway Journal, then later to Transit Journal.  It expired in 1944.  Or did it?  Did
Bus Transportation start in 1944 as a direct successor to Transit Journal?

Harold Geissenheimer wrote:

> Fred and all
> I was 15 years old in 1943 when I found an Electric Ry Journal copy
> in a used magazine store in NY.  The McGraw Hill Bldg was on 42d
> street so I went over there after school to buy a copy.  The guard in
> the lobby referred me to their library up stairs.  I learned that they
> had the entire set still on file.  I went up...found the librarin very
> suspicous of me.  Convinced he that really was interested.
>
> She found me a bound copy of the previous year and she hovered
> over me while read parts of it.  Each time I came back, she was less
> guarded.  Eventually she even told me about their magazine Bus
> Transportation.
>
> I was in.
>
> For the next 5 or 6 years, I would stop by and  glance at another year
> or so.
> A wonderfull experience...going back to horse car days and finally the
> Tranasit
> Journal.  A real benefit of my growing up on Manhattan Island.
>
> The green McGraw Hill bldg is still there on 42d Street near the bus
> terminal.  MH moved elsewhere.  A bit of history, the Hill Bldg (Before
> merger) is still there at 36th Street and 10th Ave)
>
> I really appreciated the interest of these librarians.
>
> Harold Geissenheimer
>
> Fred Schneider wrote:
>
> >Matt:
> >
> >Twenty years ago I bought the entire Electric Railway Journal (actually three
> >names) on microfilm but I never read more than certain parts when I was looking for
> >something.
> >
> >Recently I was looking for something on the first safety car, which Harold Cox said
> >was built for Illinois Traction ... a split order for their city systems in Topeka,
> >Qunicy and one other city.  Never found what I wanted because safety cars were not
> >a paramount concern ... a car that would stop itself wasn't important enough in
> >1913 to waste ink and paper.
> >
> >What did surprise me were the number of proposed trolley lines ... tons of them and
> >most were never built.  Some were listed month after month as "in progress" or
> >"approved" or "construction will begin next week" or "being built" or "under
> >construction and will open soon."   We know that most trolley construction ended
> >because of the 1907 financial panic.  Yet the proposals and searches for money
> >didn't end.   Yet by 1913 most of them never were any more than dreams.  There was
> >one in the Bloomsburg - Berwick area that was reporting progress from 1910 to at
> >least 1914 but not a shovel of dirt was ever turned.  But the number of proposed
> >lines dropped rapidly around 1913-1914.  By 1914 you could go weeks between
> >proposals.  Wonder how this keys to the knowledge that Henry Ford put his first
> >primitive assembly line to work in 1913, and began continuous chain assembly line
> >work in 1914.  All of a sudden Ford was churning out Tin Lizzies by more than
> >100,000 in a year.
> >
> >So if the line up Frankstown Road was proposed that late, it didn't have a chance.
> >
> >I remember the rails in the yellow brick street in Oakmont when I was a kid ... now
> >we're talking ten years after abandonment.  I can assure you that they were no
> >longer there when I went back for my aunt's funeral about five years ago.
> >
> >
> >
> >Matt Barry wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Fred,
> >>My nephews and I never spoke of the Verona line until they told me they
> >>found what they thought was old railroad trackage in that area on the
> >>hillside where the auto junk yard is located.  So, I have no reason to
> >>doubt them or think it was "urban rumor."
> >>
> >>You may be correct about the Frankstown Road connection.  But I based my
> >>thoughts on later years when that section of Frankstown Road was booming
> >>with East Hills shopping center, and other businesses that lined the
> >>road up to Verona Road.
> >>
> >>Fred Schneider wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I could look it up in the route cards ... again, that means lifting and I
> >>>don't do that well right now.  Give me time.
> >>>
> >>>Yes, there was a fairly substantial trestle over Sandy Creek.    The trestle
> >>>was on the north side of Verona Road and therefore not over Sandy Creek Road.
> >>>There were two roads that went up to two different points on Frankstown Road;
> >>>one was Coal Hollow Road and the other was Lime Hollow Road.  They came
> >>>together about a block from Verona Road, and I'm not sure what name prevailed
> >>>out to the intersection.
> >>>
> >>>Track on the hillside in the 1980s?  Urban rumor.  It wasn't there in 1966
> >>>when I walked the decaying right-of-way.   Ties?  PRC believed in
> >>>non-creosoted ties.  I doubt that any of them survived 30 or 40 years beyond
> >>>abandonment.
> >>>
> >>>Sorry to burst the bubble but I also fail to comprehend how a connecting link
> >>>on Frankstown Road from Laketon Road at Eastwood to Homewood would have made
> >>>the line any more viable.  That area was suburban with widely spaced houses.
> >>>There wasn't enough business to warrant Mr. Deere to run a bus more often than
> >>>every hour.  That area was the second fastest growing suburb in Pennsylvania
> >>>(second to Levittown, Bucks County) after World War II.  But it was farm
> >>>country in 1937.  I lived there!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Matt Barry wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>You mentioned the Verona line, Fred.
> >>>>
> >>>>I believe the Verona line was abandoned in 1937.
> >>>>
> >>>>What does the group know about this line?
> >>>>
> >>>>I know bits and pieces, and please correct me if I am wrong about these.
> >>>>
> >>>>It began it's routing at Braddock and Forbes Avenue.  Travelling through
> >>>>Wilkinsburg to Laketon Road, then up Monitor and then onto prw alongside
> >>>>Verona Road.   My nephews, who used to romp through that section of Penn
> >>>>Hills in their youth in the 1980's, tell me there were still ties and
> >>>>some trackage on the hillside next to Verona Road, between Frankstown
> >>>>Road and Sandy Creek Road.  That portion also held junked automobiles at
> >>>>that time -- perhaps it still does to this day.   (Hmmm...junked
> >>>>automobiles on abandoned trolley tracks, how ironic.) A map in the
> >>>>waiting room of  McCrackin Ford on McKnight Road in the North Hills
> >>>>shows a the carline pathway in that area,  and it is labelled "old
> >>>>Verona carline."
> >>>>
> >>>>When the line neared the intersection of Verona Road and Sandy Creek
> >>>>Road, it would seem to me that there may have been a trestle to carry it
> >>>>over this intersection.   Anyone know?
> >>>>
> >>>>From there, I believe the line crossed over Verona Road and went down
> >>>>Third Street either directly on Third or on paralleling prw.  It dipped
> >>>>down into Verona and from there, I don't exactly know how it made it's
> >>>>way into Oakmont.  I have read stories in Oakmont and Verona history
> >>>>booklets that briefly describe some stories about the bridge or bridges
> >>>>that carried the cars into Oakmont from Verona, as troublesome.
> >>>>Apparently they were wooden and prone to fires.   The stories are sketchy.
> >>>>
> >>>>In the late 1960's, I distinctly recall seeing the last segment of
> >>>>Allegheny River Blvd,  in Oakmont near Hulton Road, as being yellow
> >>>>brick with a section of black asphalt going straight up the middle of
> >>>>it.   Seeing this, I assumed that beneath that asphalt lie a single line
> >>>>car track.
> >>>>
> >>>>I also know that early route planners were considering connecting up the
> >>>>88/87 trackage on Frankstown Avenue in Homewood, with the Verona
> >>>>trackage.  Of course, it never happened, but had it it happened, one
> >>>>wonders if the route would have lasted beyond 1937.
> >>>>
> >>>>Matt
> >>>>
> >>>>Fred Schneider wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>My parents lived in a rented home in Oakmont at the time.   Dad took
> >>>>>quite a few pictures of Oakmont and Verona in the flood.  Sadly, as he
> >>>>>got older the mind was no longer clear.  He threw everything out without
> >>>>>the slightest question about their value.   There is a common picture
> >>>>>that the Pittsburgh Press published (the marooned photographer probably
> >>>>>walked out of their inbound loading dock onto the Pennsylvania Railroad
> >>>>>elevated) showing a streetcar on Liberty or Penn in water up to the roof
> >>>>>carlines (that would be something above nine feet of water on the
> >>>>>street).   I think I may have the newspapers but finding them in this
> >>>>>pit is problematic.
> >>>>>As I recall from the route cards, every route was shut down which
> >>>>>implies not that every line was under water but that the Duquesne Light
> >>>>>plant on Brunot's Island was inundated.   The Oakmont - Verona line was
> >>>>>never restored to service but that needs more research to determine if
> >>>>>it was flood related or not.  The actually route was mostly above flood
> >>>>>stage and also in paved streets in the Allegheny River valley.  If there
> >>>>>was any flood damage, it might have been from gullies that fed
> >>>>>tributaries to the Allegheny such as Sandy Creek.  I think think that
> >>>>>line had simply expired from an overdose of gasoline.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >