[PRCo] Re: PRCo__Interurbans

Mon Oct 18 12:01:53 EDT 2004

OK.  Sadly there is no one left that I knew whom I could go back and 
talk to.  The one I could have spoken to easily was Karl Hittle in the 
engineering office at Homewood.  If he were still living, he would 
probably be about 115 years old.  Thus the answer to the question 
becomes one of reverse engineering ... they did it, therefore why did 
they do it.  The awning like ledge, as you call it, was one I was 
referring to.   Knowing how dirty Pittsburgh was in the 1940s and early 
1950s, I can readily understand that PRC did need to prevent any water 
from entering the fan area.  Can you imagine all the dirt that would 
have collected on the monitor screens and under the front end of the 
monitor, and then being washed into the fans.  I can just see the white 
shirts covered with black specks.  (It would be somewhat analogous to 
opening the blower valve on a Pennsy D16 with a conductor in a white 
shirt standing near the engine ... if you didn't want arsenic in your 
coffee, you quickly learned to eat smoke instead of turning on the blower.)
You had to live in Pittsburgh in those days to understand.  For example, 
the old Union Station (PRR) was black in 1945.  Sometime in the late 
1940s the railroad had the exterior sand blasted, and it became a light 
brown!   Those people younger than 50 probably don't even have a clue, 
and those younger than 25 don't even know what the city smelled like 
(sulfur dioxide) before the collapse of basic steel.   (And I wonder 
too, how many people in Dallas today even understand the origin of the 
name LBJ Expressway.) 

Mark McGuire wrote:

>  No, I was referring to the tape on the front of the roof monitor.
>By "covering the side openings" you're no doubt talking about the
>slight awning-like ledge over the vents? I have to look at an old photo of newly acquired 1700 at Millvale to see the difference.
>
>                       Mark
>
>-- Fred Schneider <fschnei at supernet.com> wrote:
>I suspect that any tape on the roof monitor was put there to keep out 
>water.  If you look at the earlier pictures of 1700, back when it was 
>the only car of its type, the roof shroud had nothing covering the 
>openings on the side.  They were covered very shortly afterwards, 
>probably to keep water from getting into the fans and being blown into 
>the car.  I imagine the tape at the front end served an identical 
>purpose.  I think the fans originally blew only into the car which would 
>result in a lot of water ingestion on a less than clement day.   PRC 
>and/or PAT did play with the fans over time.  Half the fans on 1711 at 
>PTM (I think there are four altogether) blow in and the other half blow 
>out, probably because, with the doors closed there was no place for the 
>air to go if they all blew in.  The original fan ventilated cars in 
>Boston and PRC 1600 had opening windows and therefore that 
>pressurization (or vacuum) problem didn't exist. 
>I believe Mark was talking about tape around the motorman's vent, which 
>was not uncommon in the PAT era.   Without even looking at the cars, I 
>would imagine that they were built with a rubber seal around those vents 
>and that the preferred maintenance was tape as the rubber aged and 
>hardened and broke off. 
>
>James B. Holland wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Fred Schneider wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Interesting. 20 kw versus 10 kw. But my background is insufficient to 
>>>tell me what this means in terms of comfort. But it does say that 
>>>someone thought about the problem up front ... PRC's engineering staff 
>>>was not totally oblivious to the different demands of city and 
>>>interurban service.
>>>
>>>I think the tape was more likely a result of less than adequate 
>>>maintenance as the cars aged. It would be easier to cure a heat damper 
>>>problem with tape so that there is less cold air coming into the car.
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>I believe the tape Mr.Tennyson referred to was put over the curved end 
>>of the roof monitor on ALL 1700s, not just the interurbans.       Look 
>>at photos of newly delivered equipment  --  definite gap between monitor 
>>and roof at the rounded front end of the monitor.       These URLs 
>>clearly show the cars as delivered WithOut Tape::
>>
>>http://206.103.49.193/pitts/htm/pitt155.htm
>>
>>http://206.103.49.193/pitts/htm/pitt142.htm
>>
>>http://206.103.49.193/pitts/htm/pitt156.htm
>>
>>http://206.103.49.193/pitts/htm/pitt144.htm
>>
>>
>>Tape was later placed over this end and remained until The End!       
>>Never saw tape over the side screening  --  nothing for tape to stick to 
>>here  --  tape wouldn't stay on screen very long.       The following 
>>show the tape over the end:::::::
>>
>>http://206.103.49.193/pitts/htm/pitt143.htm
>>
>>http://206.103.49.193/pitts/htm/pitt138.htm
>>
>>http://206.103.49.193/pitts/htm/pitt141.htm
>>
>>http://206.103.49.193/pitts/htm/pitt140.htm
>>
>>http://206.103.49.193/pitts/htm/pitt114.htm
>>
>>http://206.103.49.193/pitts/htm/pitt122.htm
>>
>>http://206.103.49.193/pitts/htm/pitt127.htm  --  tape pulled loose here!!
>>
>>
>>Coverings of metal  *may*  have been placed over the screening but don't 
>>know if it was the 17s, 1600, or 1630  --  Probably None Of These.       
>>Seems I saw a reference to such but not a clear memory.
>>
>>The small air scoops fore and aft on the 16s and 15s were regularly 
>>covered in winter In The East End but Not in the South Hills  --  donut 
>>know why that is!       Don't know about North  --  didn't go over there 
>>much.
>>
>>
>>Jim__Holland
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Boris Cefer wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>According to original wiring diagram, interurbans had 20 kW heaters, 
>>>>city cars 10 kW heaters. If PRCo disconnected the circuits or reduced 
>>>>the number of heating elements, I don't know :-)
>>>>
>>>>In any case, during cast at higher speeds the accelerator provided 
>>>>heating capacity of approx. 12 kW, but I have no idea how the 
>>>>thermostat control handled the air circulation. Did the 
>>>>thermostatically controlled accelerator doors send it into the 
>>>>interior or outside the car???
>>>>
>>>>Boris
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "James B. Holland" <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>How Many?
>>>>>
>>>>>As PCC books say, dynamic brake was primary source of heating with 
>>>>>supplement heaters for colder climes!
>>>>>
>>>>>Even in the 1950s when the Interurban lines were shortened it was 
>>>>>still mighty cold up front - that long run from Ft. Couch road 
>>>>>outbound to near Walters is where it was particularly noticeable on 
>>>>>Drake!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Jim__Holland
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
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