[PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
James B. Holland
PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com
Tue Jan 25 21:40:56 EST 2005
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> To: transitmgr2 at earthlink.net <transitmgr2 at earthlink.net>
> Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:57 PM
> Subject: RE: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>
>> Hi Harold
>>
>> Just for the record, Harold, I don't have a problem with CAF and
>> Elmira. Actually, I'm harassing Jim Holland a bit, who I've
>> known for over 40 years. However, Jim's mired in the PCC
>> era. I keep trying to nudge him a bit towards LRV operations,
>> so far without much success.
>
Jim doesn't have a problem with CAF and Elmira, either. But John
-- if you don't have an issue with CAF, then what does this statement
mean???::::
"""CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
this saga that hasn't come out yet."""
Jim doesn't like Deuwag -- when operating at speed it seems as though
they are so doing under Severe Strain and if they go 1/2-mph faster they
will explode. And just like the PRCo list, Jim isn't believed on
the SFMuni list either. When I mentioned the hunting problems with
Siemens many spoke up against the comment until Tim Gormley quoted the
Salt Lake manager who strongly identifies Deuwag with severe hunting
problems [forward of that email enclosed below.] Harry Peat
(well known SF local, railfan, retired operator) says the Exact Same
Thing about hunting problems with Deuwags and he has ridden every
property in North America.
Jim is Not stuck in the PCC era because TrolleyCars are *Primarily* a
hobby. I quit a fine job as a research technician for a major
ethical pharmaceutical company to fill a desire to operate a PCC and San
Francisco is where my application was accepted. Interesting to
note for this *RailFan* (a Title of which I am Proud) is that on my
very first day of training I operated 1023, a car somewhat similar to
1700--1724 of PRCo, and on my very first day on my own after training, I
operated 1040 -- again, a car very much like 1700--1724 of PRCo AND
The Last PCC Built for use in North America!!!!!!!
The Flip side of *supposedly* being stuck in a certain era is that:::
1.>-- there are those today who advocate rail simply to advocate rail and
2.>-- those today who think The Only Answer is Rail.
I don't fall into either category --
1.>-- if people want and like rail, then left them have rail --
2.>-- if People Do Not Want and Do Not Like Rail, then don't beat
them over the head to accept it.
You must remember that I ushered in the lrv era here in SF with the
advent of the Boeing cars and I wasn't enthralled with them. I
recognized that my reaction to the lrv was not unlike that of the
RailFans who abhorred the coming of the PCC but after forcing myself to
like the lrv I could never quite like it as I do the PCC.
Passengers actually waited for my car because they got a smooth ride
(thought All lrvs were smooth!!) and managers liked my performance but
there was alot of stress with the job because they dearly wanted much
faster running times than with PCCs and schedules were Way Too Tight.
Again, it goes to the Hobby aspect -- I like PCCs AND the PRCo
low-floor cars -- I DO remember them and even asking my Mom to wait
downtown until one came along so we could ride it home -- she didn't
like it because her heels stuck in the flooring but she waited and we rode!!
Why does any in the world enjoy the hobby they have? It is
something we can't sufficiently explain -- one likes what he likes
and *I__Like__Ike____A--N--D____PCCs!!!!!!!* The rail cars to
follow PCCs just Do Not Interest me for the same inexplicable
reasons that PCCs DO interest me. After several years on lrvs,
and after the end of PCCs (J-Church last to go,) I transferred to
Trolley Coaches because of family needs since my seniority went
downhill -- after just 1.5-years at Muni on PCCs I had Sat, Sun, and
Holidays off -- with advent of lrvs all the old-timers bumped me back
to Tue and Wed off.
Good Golly, Miss Molly, VTA is right next door with lrvs and I haven't
ridden anything down there in a decade -- not even hysterical
cars. Much new stuff is opening as well -- haven't ridden the
Mountain View Line. Do Not intend to go just to ride what is
there ---- The Only Place I do that is Portland, Oregon, and when
the Bombardier cars are gone I doubt I'll make many trips to
Portland. (((Besides, Tri-Met condemned and razed the house that
I wanted to buy and replaced it with maintenance buildings!!!)))
Have NOT ridden anything in the LaLa area even though I had rellies in
3-different locations there -- I have seen a portion of the Long Beach
line but That Is All. I am not personally interested in the
equipment and I won't go to ride it. Doesn't mean the systems are
bad -- I am Just Not Interested!!!!!!! If I lived in the area I
might consider it for a commute to work.
I live on the N-Judah lrv line here and if I am serious about going
downtown, I drive over to Fulton and take the trolley coach because it
runs much more frequently and is Just As Fast ---- and FAR More
Reliable!
Jim isn't stuck in the PCC era -- the PCC era And Before is Jim's
Hobby -- Not Anything Since, Thank You -- and I am pleased with my
hobby.
Jim__Holland
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: (OT) Re: [SFMuni] Siemens___lrvs
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:46:49 -0800
From: Tim Gormley <t....... at ..........net>
Reply-To: SFMuni at ........com
To: <SFMuni at ........com>
References: <20041212211913.7068.qmail at web52708.mail.yahoo.com>
<41BCC806.9080804 at comcast.net> <41BCD6BD.9000203 at P-R-Co.com>
> James B. Holland wrote >
> Siemens has a Very Strong Tendency to hunt --
> side to side oscillation within the track gauge --
> and this with the artic truck. It was so
> pronounced in Sacramento once that I
> exited the train fearing a derailment
> at speed. I have noticed this on
> Every Single Siemen system I have ridden:::::::
> San Diego
> Sacramento
> Calgary
> Edmonton
[snip]
Good observation, Jim. Your observation is shared by the man who
runs the Siemens-heavy system in Salt Lake City. Alan Miner, Utah
Transit Authority (UTA) Manager of Rail Operations, mentioned that
tendency to hunt when I talked with him onboard a former VTA UTDC car in
SLC last night (Friday, 12/17/2004). I was riding UTA 1042, the
ex-VTA lead car of a 3-car ex-VTA train, at 5 pm last night when three
UTA managers boarded and congregated around the operator's cab. I
engaged Mr. Miner in conversation and asked him how he liked the ex-VTA
cars. He said he liked them and mentioned a reason why was because
they don't have the strong tendency to hunt like the Siemens cars,
especially on the high-speed portion of the Sandy line. He should
know: UTA has been operating Siemens on the Sandy line with its 55-MPH
PRW for five years.
I will post pix and observations about UTA's TRAX system on the
LightRailTraction group in the near future.
(I was on a work-related trip to SLC. Yes, I'm back home now. Thank you,
Amtrak, for getting me home on schedule.)
Tim Gormley
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:07:10 -0800
From: James B. Holland <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
References: <000401c50255$fcae8a60$9c44f804 at default>
Don't know that CAF is being criticized -- just the process of what is
happening. My comments were strictly tongue-in-cheek.
B--U--T....... since you bring it up -- I am NOT a fan of Siemens-Deuwag
equipment. Everything I have ridden has a tendency to hunt, very strong
tendency. One car in a train in Sacramento was so bad -- believe it was
the artic truck but can't remember for sure -- was so bad that I got off
the train fearing derailment at speed. Even the Portland 70% low-floor
cars had this tendency when brand new -- haven't been back so I don't
know how they have fared over time. Would hope to get up there soon but
don't think I shall. The controllers look like Toy Train -- ok if
it is a toy train but this is *supposed* to be prototype. And the
disc brakes will set up automatically when the train *coasts* below a
certain speed -- brake does NOT need to be applied. So motorman
has difficulty with slow speeds at traffic points. And the discs
can chatter severely when this happens. Nope, Not a fan of deuwag
equipment -- You Can Have It.
The Portland 70% low-floor cars are utilitarian but have not and shall
not ride in the low-floor section -- too vulnerable from side impact
---- MUCH comments about that problem on the transit lists. Portland has
The Very Best modern rail cars with those produced by Bombardier -- they
are coming up on 20-years old. Portland will lose its appeal for
me when those cars are retired.
Jim__Holland
Harold G. wrote:
> Why all this criticism of CAF and Elmira?
> I liked the CAF cars for Sacramento. Also the Ring line cars for
> Amsterdam.
> Harold Geissenheimer
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:47 AM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>> James B. Holland asked:
>>> CAF -- That's CAlifornia, F-Line, San Francisco.......
>>> Keerect??
>> try:
>> http://www.caf.es/10/instalaciones.asp
>> and it's practically in your back yard, Jim
>> Looks like CAF also acquired the former Adtranz plant in Elmira. And
>> we all know what got fixed up at this plant.
>> John
>>> John Swindler wrote:
>>>> CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
>>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet.
>> The PCC was a good design, and it is what I grew up with in
>> Pittsburgh. I have many fond memories, and am just a bit too young to
>> remember the 'yellow cars.' But PCC was still a vehicle designed to
>> last 20 years, and then be replaced with the next generation rolling
>> stock. That's a paraphase from a speech given by Dr. Hirschfeld of
>> ERPCC to the AERA (today's APTA) convention in 1935.
>> My regret? Not making a lot more trips to Europe over the years.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>> From: "Harold G." <transitmgr2 at earthlink.net>
>>> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:44:43 -0500
>>>
>>> Greetings to all. Was Elmira the rehaber of the Arden PCC cars?
>>> Pretty good work.
>>>
>>> Why all this criticism of CAF and Elmira?
>>>
>>> I liked the CAF cars for Sacramento. Also the Ring line cars for
>>> Amsterdam.
>>>
>>> Harold Geissenheimer
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>> Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:47 AM
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>>
>>>>> James B. Holland asked:
>>>>>
>>>>> CAF -- That's CAlifornia, F-Line, San Francisco.......
>>>>>
>>>>> Keerect??
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> try:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.caf.es/10/instalaciones.asp
>>>>
>>>> and it's practically in your back yard, Jim
>>>>
>>>> Looks like CAF also acquired the former Adtranz plant in Elmira.
>>>> And we all know what got fixed up at this plant.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> John Swindler wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
>>>>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet.
>>>>>
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