[PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
Fred Schneider
fschnei at supernet.com
Wed Jan 26 20:17:59 EST 2005
I find this all very interesting ... the first time I rode Combino in Augsburg
(Germany that is), I had the impression that the cab was nosing severely. I've
seen the same problem elsewhere, most recently in Helsinki. I guess I'm not
alone in that opinion.
"James B. Holland" wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> > To: transitmgr2 at earthlink.net <transitmgr2 at earthlink.net>
> > Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:57 PM
> > Subject: RE: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
> >
> >> Hi Harold
> >>
> >> Just for the record, Harold, I don't have a problem with CAF and
> >> Elmira. Actually, I'm harassing Jim Holland a bit, who I've
> >> known for over 40 years. However, Jim's mired in the PCC
> >> era. I keep trying to nudge him a bit towards LRV operations,
> >> so far without much success.
> >
>
> Jim doesn't have a problem with CAF and Elmira, either. But John
> -- if you don't have an issue with CAF, then what does this statement
> mean???::::
>
> """CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
> this saga that hasn't come out yet."""
>
> Jim doesn't like Deuwag -- when operating at speed it seems as though
> they are so doing under Severe Strain and if they go 1/2-mph faster they
> will explode. And just like the PRCo list, Jim isn't believed on
> the SFMuni list either. When I mentioned the hunting problems with
> Siemens many spoke up against the comment until Tim Gormley quoted the
> Salt Lake manager who strongly identifies Deuwag with severe hunting
> problems [forward of that email enclosed below.] Harry Peat
> (well known SF local, railfan, retired operator) says the Exact Same
> Thing about hunting problems with Deuwags and he has ridden every
> property in North America.
>
> Jim is Not stuck in the PCC era because TrolleyCars are *Primarily* a
> hobby. I quit a fine job as a research technician for a major
> ethical pharmaceutical company to fill a desire to operate a PCC and San
> Francisco is where my application was accepted. Interesting to
> note for this *RailFan* (a Title of which I am Proud) is that on my
> very first day of training I operated 1023, a car somewhat similar to
> 1700--1724 of PRCo, and on my very first day on my own after training, I
> operated 1040 -- again, a car very much like 1700--1724 of PRCo AND
> The Last PCC Built for use in North America!!!!!!!
>
> The Flip side of *supposedly* being stuck in a certain era is that:::
>
> 1.>-- there are those today who advocate rail simply to advocate rail and
>
> 2.>-- those today who think The Only Answer is Rail.
>
> I don't fall into either category --
>
> 1.>-- if people want and like rail, then left them have rail --
>
> 2.>-- if People Do Not Want and Do Not Like Rail, then don't beat
> them over the head to accept it.
>
> You must remember that I ushered in the lrv era here in SF with the
> advent of the Boeing cars and I wasn't enthralled with them. I
> recognized that my reaction to the lrv was not unlike that of the
> RailFans who abhorred the coming of the PCC but after forcing myself to
> like the lrv I could never quite like it as I do the PCC.
> Passengers actually waited for my car because they got a smooth ride
> (thought All lrvs were smooth!!) and managers liked my performance but
> there was alot of stress with the job because they dearly wanted much
> faster running times than with PCCs and schedules were Way Too Tight.
> Again, it goes to the Hobby aspect -- I like PCCs AND the PRCo
> low-floor cars -- I DO remember them and even asking my Mom to wait
> downtown until one came along so we could ride it home -- she didn't
> like it because her heels stuck in the flooring but she waited and we rode!!
>
> Why does any in the world enjoy the hobby they have? It is
> something we can't sufficiently explain -- one likes what he likes
> and *I__Like__Ike____A--N--D____PCCs!!!!!!!* The rail cars to
> follow PCCs just Do Not Interest me for the same inexplicable
> reasons that PCCs DO interest me. After several years on lrvs,
> and after the end of PCCs (J-Church last to go,) I transferred to
> Trolley Coaches because of family needs since my seniority went
> downhill -- after just 1.5-years at Muni on PCCs I had Sat, Sun, and
> Holidays off -- with advent of lrvs all the old-timers bumped me back
> to Tue and Wed off.
>
> Good Golly, Miss Molly, VTA is right next door with lrvs and I haven't
> ridden anything down there in a decade -- not even hysterical
> cars. Much new stuff is opening as well -- haven't ridden the
> Mountain View Line. Do Not intend to go just to ride what is
> there ---- The Only Place I do that is Portland, Oregon, and when
> the Bombardier cars are gone I doubt I'll make many trips to
> Portland. (((Besides, Tri-Met condemned and razed the house that
> I wanted to buy and replaced it with maintenance buildings!!!)))
>
> Have NOT ridden anything in the LaLa area even though I had rellies in
> 3-different locations there -- I have seen a portion of the Long Beach
> line but That Is All. I am not personally interested in the
> equipment and I won't go to ride it. Doesn't mean the systems are
> bad -- I am Just Not Interested!!!!!!! If I lived in the area I
> might consider it for a commute to work.
>
> I live on the N-Judah lrv line here and if I am serious about going
> downtown, I drive over to Fulton and take the trolley coach because it
> runs much more frequently and is Just As Fast ---- and FAR More
> Reliable!
>
> Jim isn't stuck in the PCC era -- the PCC era And Before is Jim's
> Hobby -- Not Anything Since, Thank You -- and I am pleased with my
> hobby.
>
> Jim__Holland
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: (OT) Re: [SFMuni] Siemens___lrvs
> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:46:49 -0800
> From: Tim Gormley <t....... at ..........net>
> Reply-To: SFMuni at ........com
> To: <SFMuni at ........com>
> References: <20041212211913.7068.qmail at web52708.mail.yahoo.com>
> <41BCC806.9080804 at comcast.net> <41BCD6BD.9000203 at P-R-Co.com>
>
> > James B. Holland wrote >
>
> > Siemens has a Very Strong Tendency to hunt --
> > side to side oscillation within the track gauge --
> > and this with the artic truck. It was so
> > pronounced in Sacramento once that I
> > exited the train fearing a derailment
> > at speed. I have noticed this on
> > Every Single Siemen system I have ridden:::::::
>
> > San Diego
>
> > Sacramento
>
> > Calgary
>
> > Edmonton
>
> [snip]
>
> Good observation, Jim. Your observation is shared by the man who
> runs the Siemens-heavy system in Salt Lake City. Alan Miner, Utah
> Transit Authority (UTA) Manager of Rail Operations, mentioned that
> tendency to hunt when I talked with him onboard a former VTA UTDC car in
> SLC last night (Friday, 12/17/2004). I was riding UTA 1042, the
> ex-VTA lead car of a 3-car ex-VTA train, at 5 pm last night when three
> UTA managers boarded and congregated around the operator's cab. I
> engaged Mr. Miner in conversation and asked him how he liked the ex-VTA
> cars. He said he liked them and mentioned a reason why was because
> they don't have the strong tendency to hunt like the Siemens cars,
> especially on the high-speed portion of the Sandy line. He should
> know: UTA has been operating Siemens on the Sandy line with its 55-MPH
> PRW for five years.
>
> I will post pix and observations about UTA's TRAX system on the
> LightRailTraction group in the near future.
>
> (I was on a work-related trip to SLC. Yes, I'm back home now. Thank you,
> Amtrak, for getting me home on schedule.)
>
> Tim Gormley
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:07:10 -0800
> From: James B. Holland <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> References: <000401c50255$fcae8a60$9c44f804 at default>
>
> Don't know that CAF is being criticized -- just the process of what is
> happening. My comments were strictly tongue-in-cheek.
>
> B--U--T....... since you bring it up -- I am NOT a fan of Siemens-Deuwag
> equipment. Everything I have ridden has a tendency to hunt, very strong
> tendency. One car in a train in Sacramento was so bad -- believe it was
> the artic truck but can't remember for sure -- was so bad that I got off
> the train fearing derailment at speed. Even the Portland 70% low-floor
> cars had this tendency when brand new -- haven't been back so I don't
> know how they have fared over time. Would hope to get up there soon but
> don't think I shall. The controllers look like Toy Train -- ok if
> it is a toy train but this is *supposed* to be prototype. And the
> disc brakes will set up automatically when the train *coasts* below a
> certain speed -- brake does NOT need to be applied. So motorman
> has difficulty with slow speeds at traffic points. And the discs
> can chatter severely when this happens. Nope, Not a fan of deuwag
> equipment -- You Can Have It.
>
> The Portland 70% low-floor cars are utilitarian but have not and shall
> not ride in the low-floor section -- too vulnerable from side impact
> ---- MUCH comments about that problem on the transit lists. Portland has
> The Very Best modern rail cars with those produced by Bombardier -- they
> are coming up on 20-years old. Portland will lose its appeal for
> me when those cars are retired.
>
> Jim__Holland
>
> Harold G. wrote:
>
> > Why all this criticism of CAF and Elmira?
>
> > I liked the CAF cars for Sacramento. Also the Ring line cars for
> > Amsterdam.
>
> > Harold Geissenheimer
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> > Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:47 AM
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>
> >>> James B. Holland asked:
>
> >>> CAF -- That's CAlifornia, F-Line, San Francisco.......
>
> >>> Keerect??
>
> >> try:
>
> >> http://www.caf.es/10/instalaciones.asp
>
> >> and it's practically in your back yard, Jim
>
> >> Looks like CAF also acquired the former Adtranz plant in Elmira. And
> >> we all know what got fixed up at this plant.
>
> >> John
>
> >>> John Swindler wrote:
>
> >>>> CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
> >>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet.
>
> >> The PCC was a good design, and it is what I grew up with in
> >> Pittsburgh. I have many fond memories, and am just a bit too young to
> >> remember the 'yellow cars.' But PCC was still a vehicle designed to
> >> last 20 years, and then be replaced with the next generation rolling
> >> stock. That's a paraphase from a speech given by Dr. Hirschfeld of
> >> ERPCC to the AERA (today's APTA) convention in 1935.
> >> My regret? Not making a lot more trips to Europe over the years.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: "Harold G." <transitmgr2 at earthlink.net>
> >>> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
> >>> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:44:43 -0500
> >>>
> >>> Greetings to all. Was Elmira the rehaber of the Arden PCC cars?
> >>> Pretty good work.
> >>>
> >>> Why all this criticism of CAF and Elmira?
> >>>
> >>> I liked the CAF cars for Sacramento. Also the Ring line cars for
> >>> Amsterdam.
> >>>
> >>> Harold Geissenheimer
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> >>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> >>> Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:47 AM
> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
> >>>
> >>>>> James B. Holland asked:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> CAF -- That's CAlifornia, F-Line, San Francisco.......
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Keerect??
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> try:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.caf.es/10/instalaciones.asp
> >>>>
> >>>> and it's practically in your back yard, Jim
> >>>>
> >>>> Looks like CAF also acquired the former Adtranz plant in Elmira.
> >>>> And we all know what got fixed up at this plant.
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> John
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> John Swindler wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
> >>>>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet.
> >>>>>
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