[PRCo] Nosing (Was FYI about PAT CAF cars)
Ken & Tracie
ktjosephson at earthlink.net
Wed Jan 26 21:01:15 EST 2005
So what causes the nosing? Truck design or the wheels? I remember reading
about the North Shore Line solving high speed nosing problems by replacing
the conical wheel tread design with a cylindrical tread design.
K.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Schneider" <fschnei at supernet.com>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:17 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>I find this all very interesting ... the first time I rode Combino in
>Augsburg
> (Germany that is), I had the impression that the cab was nosing severely.
> I've
> seen the same problem elsewhere, most recently in Helsinki. I guess I'm
> not
> alone in that opinion.
>
> "James B. Holland" wrote:
>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>> > To: transitmgr2 at earthlink.net <transitmgr2 at earthlink.net>
>> > Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:57 PM
>> > Subject: RE: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>> >
>> >> Hi Harold
>> >>
>> >> Just for the record, Harold, I don't have a problem with CAF and
>> >> Elmira. Actually, I'm harassing Jim Holland a bit, who I've
>> >> known for over 40 years. However, Jim's mired in the PCC
>> >> era. I keep trying to nudge him a bit towards LRV operations,
>> >> so far without much success.
>> >
>>
>> Jim doesn't have a problem with CAF and Elmira, either. But John
>> -- if you don't have an issue with CAF, then what does this statement
>> mean???::::
>>
>> """CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
>> this saga that hasn't come out yet."""
>>
>> Jim doesn't like Deuwag -- when operating at speed it seems as though
>> they are so doing under Severe Strain and if they go 1/2-mph faster they
>> will explode. And just like the PRCo list, Jim isn't believed on
>> the SFMuni list either. When I mentioned the hunting problems with
>> Siemens many spoke up against the comment until Tim Gormley quoted the
>> Salt Lake manager who strongly identifies Deuwag with severe hunting
>> problems [forward of that email enclosed below.] Harry Peat
>> (well known SF local, railfan, retired operator) says the Exact Same
>> Thing about hunting problems with Deuwags and he has ridden every
>> property in North America.
>>
>> Jim is Not stuck in the PCC era because TrolleyCars are *Primarily* a
>> hobby. I quit a fine job as a research technician for a major
>> ethical pharmaceutical company to fill a desire to operate a PCC and San
>> Francisco is where my application was accepted. Interesting to
>> note for this *RailFan* (a Title of which I am Proud) is that on my
>> very first day of training I operated 1023, a car somewhat similar to
>> 1700--1724 of PRCo, and on my very first day on my own after training, I
>> operated 1040 -- again, a car very much like 1700--1724 of PRCo AND
>> The Last PCC Built for use in North America!!!!!!!
>>
>> The Flip side of *supposedly* being stuck in a certain era is that:::
>>
>> 1.>-- there are those today who advocate rail simply to advocate rail
>> and
>>
>> 2.>-- those today who think The Only Answer is Rail.
>>
>> I don't fall into either category --
>>
>> 1.>-- if people want and like rail, then left them have rail --
>>
>> 2.>-- if People Do Not Want and Do Not Like Rail, then don't beat
>> them over the head to accept it.
>>
>> You must remember that I ushered in the lrv era here in SF with the
>> advent of the Boeing cars and I wasn't enthralled with them. I
>> recognized that my reaction to the lrv was not unlike that of the
>> RailFans who abhorred the coming of the PCC but after forcing myself to
>> like the lrv I could never quite like it as I do the PCC.
>> Passengers actually waited for my car because they got a smooth ride
>> (thought All lrvs were smooth!!) and managers liked my performance but
>> there was alot of stress with the job because they dearly wanted much
>> faster running times than with PCCs and schedules were Way Too Tight.
>> Again, it goes to the Hobby aspect -- I like PCCs AND the PRCo
>> low-floor cars -- I DO remember them and even asking my Mom to wait
>> downtown until one came along so we could ride it home -- she didn't
>> like it because her heels stuck in the flooring but she waited and we
>> rode!!
>>
>> Why does any in the world enjoy the hobby they have? It is
>> something we can't sufficiently explain -- one likes what he likes
>> and *I__Like__Ike____A--N--D____PCCs!!!!!!!* The rail cars to
>> follow PCCs just Do Not Interest me for the same inexplicable
>> reasons that PCCs DO interest me. After several years on lrvs,
>> and after the end of PCCs (J-Church last to go,) I transferred to
>> Trolley Coaches because of family needs since my seniority went
>> downhill -- after just 1.5-years at Muni on PCCs I had Sat, Sun, and
>> Holidays off -- with advent of lrvs all the old-timers bumped me back
>> to Tue and Wed off.
>>
>> Good Golly, Miss Molly, VTA is right next door with lrvs and I haven't
>> ridden anything down there in a decade -- not even hysterical
>> cars. Much new stuff is opening as well -- haven't ridden the
>> Mountain View Line. Do Not intend to go just to ride what is
>> there ---- The Only Place I do that is Portland, Oregon, and when
>> the Bombardier cars are gone I doubt I'll make many trips to
>> Portland. (((Besides, Tri-Met condemned and razed the house that
>> I wanted to buy and replaced it with maintenance buildings!!!)))
>>
>> Have NOT ridden anything in the LaLa area even though I had rellies in
>> 3-different locations there -- I have seen a portion of the Long Beach
>> line but That Is All. I am not personally interested in the
>> equipment and I won't go to ride it. Doesn't mean the systems are
>> bad -- I am Just Not Interested!!!!!!! If I lived in the area I
>> might consider it for a commute to work.
>>
>> I live on the N-Judah lrv line here and if I am serious about going
>> downtown, I drive over to Fulton and take the trolley coach because it
>> runs much more frequently and is Just As Fast ---- and FAR More
>> Reliable!
>>
>> Jim isn't stuck in the PCC era -- the PCC era And Before is Jim's
>> Hobby -- Not Anything Since, Thank You -- and I am pleased with my
>> hobby.
>>
>> Jim__Holland
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: (OT) Re: [SFMuni] Siemens___lrvs
>> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:46:49 -0800
>> From: Tim Gormley <t....... at ..........net>
>> Reply-To: SFMuni at ........com
>> To: <SFMuni at ........com>
>> References: <20041212211913.7068.qmail at web52708.mail.yahoo.com>
>> <41BCC806.9080804 at comcast.net> <41BCD6BD.9000203 at P-R-Co.com>
>>
>> > James B. Holland wrote >
>>
>> > Siemens has a Very Strong Tendency to hunt --
>> > side to side oscillation within the track gauge --
>> > and this with the artic truck. It was so
>> > pronounced in Sacramento once that I
>> > exited the train fearing a derailment
>> > at speed. I have noticed this on
>> > Every Single Siemen system I have ridden:::::::
>>
>> > San Diego
>>
>> > Sacramento
>>
>> > Calgary
>>
>> > Edmonton
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> Good observation, Jim. Your observation is shared by the man who
>> runs the Siemens-heavy system in Salt Lake City. Alan Miner, Utah
>> Transit Authority (UTA) Manager of Rail Operations, mentioned that
>> tendency to hunt when I talked with him onboard a former VTA UTDC car in
>> SLC last night (Friday, 12/17/2004). I was riding UTA 1042, the
>> ex-VTA lead car of a 3-car ex-VTA train, at 5 pm last night when three
>> UTA managers boarded and congregated around the operator's cab. I
>> engaged Mr. Miner in conversation and asked him how he liked the ex-VTA
>> cars. He said he liked them and mentioned a reason why was because
>> they don't have the strong tendency to hunt like the Siemens cars,
>> especially on the high-speed portion of the Sandy line. He should
>> know: UTA has been operating Siemens on the Sandy line with its 55-MPH
>> PRW for five years.
>>
>> I will post pix and observations about UTA's TRAX system on the
>> LightRailTraction group in the near future.
>>
>> (I was on a work-related trip to SLC. Yes, I'm back home now. Thank you,
>> Amtrak, for getting me home on schedule.)
>>
>> Tim Gormley
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:07:10 -0800
>> From: James B. Holland <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> References: <000401c50255$fcae8a60$9c44f804 at default>
>>
>> Don't know that CAF is being criticized -- just the process of what is
>> happening. My comments were strictly tongue-in-cheek.
>>
>> B--U--T....... since you bring it up -- I am NOT a fan of Siemens-Deuwag
>> equipment. Everything I have ridden has a tendency to hunt, very strong
>> tendency. One car in a train in Sacramento was so bad -- believe it was
>> the artic truck but can't remember for sure -- was so bad that I got off
>> the train fearing derailment at speed. Even the Portland 70% low-floor
>> cars had this tendency when brand new -- haven't been back so I don't
>> know how they have fared over time. Would hope to get up there soon but
>> don't think I shall. The controllers look like Toy Train -- ok if
>> it is a toy train but this is *supposed* to be prototype. And the
>> disc brakes will set up automatically when the train *coasts* below a
>> certain speed -- brake does NOT need to be applied. So motorman
>> has difficulty with slow speeds at traffic points. And the discs
>> can chatter severely when this happens. Nope, Not a fan of deuwag
>> equipment -- You Can Have It.
>>
>> The Portland 70% low-floor cars are utilitarian but have not and shall
>> not ride in the low-floor section -- too vulnerable from side impact
>> ---- MUCH comments about that problem on the transit lists. Portland has
>> The Very Best modern rail cars with those produced by Bombardier -- they
>> are coming up on 20-years old. Portland will lose its appeal for
>> me when those cars are retired.
>>
>> Jim__Holland
>>
>> Harold G. wrote:
>>
>> > Why all this criticism of CAF and Elmira?
>>
>> > I liked the CAF cars for Sacramento. Also the Ring line cars for
>> > Amsterdam.
>>
>> > Harold Geissenheimer
>>
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>> > Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:47 AM
>> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>
>> >>> James B. Holland asked:
>>
>> >>> CAF -- That's CAlifornia, F-Line, San Francisco.......
>>
>> >>> Keerect??
>>
>> >> try:
>>
>> >> http://www.caf.es/10/instalaciones.asp
>>
>> >> and it's practically in your back yard, Jim
>>
>> >> Looks like CAF also acquired the former Adtranz plant in Elmira. And
>> >> we all know what got fixed up at this plant.
>>
>> >> John
>>
>> >>> John Swindler wrote:
>>
>> >>>> CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
>> >>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet.
>>
>> >> The PCC was a good design, and it is what I grew up with in
>> >> Pittsburgh. I have many fond memories, and am just a bit too young to
>> >> remember the 'yellow cars.' But PCC was still a vehicle designed to
>> >> last 20 years, and then be replaced with the next generation rolling
>> >> stock. That's a paraphase from a speech given by Dr. Hirschfeld of
>> >> ERPCC to the AERA (today's APTA) convention in 1935.
>> >> My regret? Not making a lot more trips to Europe over the years.
>> >>
>> >> John
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> From: "Harold G." <transitmgr2 at earthlink.net>
>> >>> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> >>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>> >>> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:44:43 -0500
>> >>>
>> >>> Greetings to all. Was Elmira the rehaber of the Arden PCC cars?
>> >>> Pretty good work.
>> >>>
>> >>> Why all this criticism of CAF and Elmira?
>> >>>
>> >>> I liked the CAF cars for Sacramento. Also the Ring line cars for
>> >>> Amsterdam.
>> >>>
>> >>> Harold Geissenheimer
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>> >>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> >>> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>> >>> Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:47 AM
>> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>> >>>
>> >>>>> James B. Holland asked:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> CAF -- That's CAlifornia, F-Line, San Francisco.......
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Keerect??
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> try:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> http://www.caf.es/10/instalaciones.asp
>> >>>>
>> >>>> and it's practically in your back yard, Jim
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Looks like CAF also acquired the former Adtranz plant in Elmira.
>> >>>> And we all know what got fixed up at this plant.
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> John
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> John Swindler wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
>> >>>>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet.
>> >>>>>
>
>
>
>
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