[PRCo] Re: Nosing

[James B. Holland]

Can be a variety of things.


Hate to admit this since I have been labeled as

                *Dormant__In__The__PCC__Era*

(A Label Which is Apt, Appreciated, And Appropriate  --

                Thank__You(!!!!!!!))

but the PRCo 17-series PCC Interurbans had a good tendency to hunt // 
nose as well.       Not At All Uncommon To Get Severe Enough that the 
motorman slowed the car to almost a stop and then reapplied the 
power.       Car 1712 became a favorite of mine because it was a car 
that bucked  (literally)  the trend toward hunting  --  it would bounce, 
but ever so gently, on the spring pots - first one truck and then the 
other.       Charlie Diehl had it one day and in one of those unspoken 
moments just turned and smiled at me as it was bouncing  --  we both 
knew what was meant!!!!!!!

Certainly the track can contribute  --  get hunting started with 
irregular track and it feeds on itself to a certain degree.       And 
rough track will increase maintenance needs on any truck.

I felt it was lack of maintenance on the B3  --  *possibly*  the rubber 
bushings used for flexing and located at opposite ends of the truck 
between the axle and side frame  (2-per truck)  that would then allow 
axles to move from parallel and contribute to hunting  (the other two 
axle/side frame locations are rigid.)       It would just be a slight 
movement but if both axles did so in opposite directions, the difference 
from parallel could be marked and could strongly contribute to hunting.

*Never*  had a hunting experience on a B2 truck.        The difference 
in design did not allow for this kind of wear.       Did see a torque 
arm bushing totally fail on the 42-Dormont in the mid-1950s and the shop 
held it together with bailing wire and sent the car in this 
way!!!!!!!       You should have seen the axles perform on this puppy as 
it turned into and backed out of the wye  --  I cringed so bad that the 
motorman stopped the car even though the shop was waving him 
on!!!!!!!      Wheel bounced up and down on the track on that sharp 
curve as well  --  thought it would derail and compound the problem.

The taper to the tire tread doesn't sound logical as a source of hunting 
since the taper is, or at least was, rather standard in North 
America.       Have heard this about North Shore before but so far I 
haven't seen any

It needs to be recognized that all  *hunting__is__Not__hunting*    --    
the differences in design between the B2 and B3 make for different 
performance on the same track.       There was a portion on Church 
Street here in SF outbound between 17th and 18th downhill that was quite 
rough  --  a B3 equipped car slammed back and forth sideways while a B2 
passed through with barely a disturbance.       The Swing link possibly 
saved sideways motion on the car on a B2 truck as the truck itself moved 
back and forth on the uneven track  --  the bad track was short enough 
that the motion was not transferred to the body.       But the framing 
of the B3 truck would even get the spring pots moving from side to side 
which then transferred this motion to the body.       The motion ceased 
when the car passed this brief section of bad track  --  that would not 
happen with hunting  --  hunting seems to intensify once begun until 
measures like purposely slowing are taken to alleviate same.

This same type of situation is pointed out in the PCC books about 
Chicago B2s and B3s on rough track  --  considerably sideways action to 
the B3 whereas it is hardly noticeable on the B2.

Yes, the B3 was developed for open track but have said before that the 
B2 did just fine from a ride standpoint  --  don't know if it was more 
problematic for maintenance.       Would Dearly Like To Know what a ride 
on the interurban would be like with the  *Original__B2Bs*    ----    A 
Truly Superb Ride And The  ONLY  equipment I have ever ridden that aptly 
fit the description of  *Riding__On__A__Cloud!*


Jim__Holland



Ken & Tracie wrote:

> So what causes the nosing? Truck design or the wheels? I remember reading
> about the North Shore Line solving high speed nosing problems by 
> replacing
> the conical wheel tread design with a cylindrical tread design.
>
> K.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred Schneider" <fschnei at supernet.com>
> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:17 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>
>
>> I find this all very interesting ... the first time I rode Combino in
>> Augsburg
>> (Germany that is), I had the impression that the cab was nosing 
>> severely.
>> I've
>> seen the same problem elsewhere, most recently in Helsinki. I guess I'm
>> not
>> alone in that opinion.
>>
>> "James B. Holland" wrote:
>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>>>> To: transitmgr2 at earthlink.net <transitmgr2 at earthlink.net>
>>>> Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:57 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Harold
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for the record, Harold, I don't have a problem with CAF and
>>>>> Elmira. Actually, I'm harassing Jim Holland a bit, who I've
>>>>> known for over 40 years. However, Jim's mired in the PCC
>>>>> era. I keep trying to nudge him a bit towards LRV operations,
>>>>> so far without much success.
>>>>
>>> Jim doesn't have a problem with CAF and Elmira, either. But John
>>> -- if you don't have an issue with CAF, then what does this statement
>>> mean???::::
>>>
>>> """CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet."""
>>>
>>> Jim doesn't like Deuwag -- when operating at speed it seems as though
>>> they are so doing under Severe Strain and if they go 1/2-mph faster they
>>> will explode. And just like the PRCo list, Jim isn't believed on
>>> the SFMuni list either. When I mentioned the hunting problems with
>>> Siemens many spoke up against the comment until Tim Gormley quoted the
>>> Salt Lake manager who strongly identifies Deuwag with severe hunting
>>> problems [forward of that email enclosed below.] Harry Peat
>>> (well known SF local, railfan, retired operator) says the Exact Same
>>> Thing about hunting problems with Deuwags and he has ridden every
>>> property in North America.
>>>
>>> Jim is Not stuck in the PCC era because TrolleyCars are *Primarily* a
>>> hobby. I quit a fine job as a research technician for a major
>>> ethical pharmaceutical company to fill a desire to operate a PCC and San
>>> Francisco is where my application was accepted. Interesting to
>>> note for this *RailFan* (a Title of which I am Proud) is that on my
>>> very first day of training I operated 1023, a car somewhat similar to
>>> 1700--1724 of PRCo, and on my very first day on my own after training, I
>>> operated 1040 -- again, a car very much like 1700--1724 of PRCo AND
>>> The Last PCC Built for use in North America!!!!!!!
>>>
>>> The Flip side of *supposedly* being stuck in a certain era is that:::
>>>
>>> 1.>-- there are those today who advocate rail simply to advocate rail
>>> and
>>>
>>> 2.>-- those today who think The Only Answer is Rail.
>>>
>>> I don't fall into either category --
>>>
>>> 1.>-- if people want and like rail, then left them have rail --
>>>
>>> 2.>-- if People Do Not Want and Do Not Like Rail, then don't beat
>>> them over the head to accept it.
>>>
>>> You must remember that I ushered in the lrv era here in SF with the
>>> advent of the Boeing cars and I wasn't enthralled with them. I
>>> recognized that my reaction to the lrv was not unlike that of the
>>> RailFans who abhorred the coming of the PCC but after forcing myself to
>>> like the lrv I could never quite like it as I do the PCC.
>>> Passengers actually waited for my car because they got a smooth ride
>>> (thought All lrvs were smooth!!) and managers liked my performance but
>>> there was alot of stress with the job because they dearly wanted much
>>> faster running times than with PCCs and schedules were Way Too Tight.
>>> Again, it goes to the Hobby aspect -- I like PCCs AND the PRCo
>>> low-floor cars -- I DO remember them and even asking my Mom to wait
>>> downtown until one came along so we could ride it home -- she didn't
>>> like it because her heels stuck in the flooring but she waited and we
>>> rode!!
>>>
>>> Why does any in the world enjoy the hobby they have? It is
>>> something we can't sufficiently explain -- one likes what he likes
>>> and *I__Like__Ike____A--N--D____PCCs!!!!!!!* The rail cars to
>>> follow PCCs just Do Not Interest me for the same inexplicable
>>> reasons that PCCs DO interest me. After several years on lrvs,
>>> and after the end of PCCs (J-Church last to go,) I transferred to
>>> Trolley Coaches because of family needs since my seniority went
>>> downhill -- after just 1.5-years at Muni on PCCs I had Sat, Sun, and
>>> Holidays off -- with advent of lrvs all the old-timers bumped me back
>>> to Tue and Wed off.
>>>
>>> Good Golly, Miss Molly, VTA is right next door with lrvs and I haven't
>>> ridden anything down there in a decade -- not even hysterical
>>> cars. Much new stuff is opening as well -- haven't ridden the
>>> Mountain View Line. Do Not intend to go just to ride what is
>>> there ---- The Only Place I do that is Portland, Oregon, and when
>>> the Bombardier cars are gone I doubt I'll make many trips to
>>> Portland. (((Besides, Tri-Met condemned and razed the house that
>>> I wanted to buy and replaced it with maintenance buildings!!!)))
>>>
>>> Have NOT ridden anything in the LaLa area even though I had rellies in
>>> 3-different locations there -- I have seen a portion of the Long Beach
>>> line but That Is All. I am not personally interested in the
>>> equipment and I won't go to ride it. Doesn't mean the systems are
>>> bad -- I am Just Not Interested!!!!!!! If I lived in the area I
>>> might consider it for a commute to work.
>>>
>>> I live on the N-Judah lrv line here and if I am serious about going
>>> downtown, I drive over to Fulton and take the trolley coach because it
>>> runs much more frequently and is Just As Fast ---- and FAR More
>>> Reliable!
>>>
>>> Jim isn't stuck in the PCC era -- the PCC era And Before is Jim's
>>> Hobby -- Not Anything Since, Thank You -- and I am pleased with my
>>> hobby.
>>>
>>> Jim__Holland
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: (OT) Re: [SFMuni] Siemens___lrvs
>>> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:46:49 -0800
>>> From: Tim Gormley <t....... at ..........net>
>>> Reply-To: SFMuni at ........com
>>> To: <SFMuni at ........com>
>>> References: <20041212211913.7068.qmail at web52708.mail.yahoo.com>
>>> <41BCC806.9080804 at comcast.net> <41BCD6BD.9000203 at P-R-Co.com>
>>>
>>> > James B. Holland wrote >
>>>
>>> > Siemens has a Very Strong Tendency to hunt --
>>> > side to side oscillation within the track gauge --
>>> > and this with the artic truck. It was so
>>> > pronounced in Sacramento once that I
>>> > exited the train fearing a derailment
>>> > at speed. I have noticed this on
>>> > Every Single Siemen system I have ridden:::::::
>>>
>>> > San Diego
>>>
>>> > Sacramento
>>>
>>> > Calgary
>>>
>>> > Edmonton
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Good observation, Jim. Your observation is shared by the man who
>>> runs the Siemens-heavy system in Salt Lake City. Alan Miner, Utah
>>> Transit Authority (UTA) Manager of Rail Operations, mentioned that
>>> tendency to hunt when I talked with him onboard a former VTA UTDC car in
>>> SLC last night (Friday, 12/17/2004). I was riding UTA 1042, the
>>> ex-VTA lead car of a 3-car ex-VTA train, at 5 pm last night when three
>>> UTA managers boarded and congregated around the operator's cab. I
>>> engaged Mr. Miner in conversation and asked him how he liked the ex-VTA
>>> cars. He said he liked them and mentioned a reason why was because
>>> they don't have the strong tendency to hunt like the Siemens cars,
>>> especially on the high-speed portion of the Sandy line. He should
>>> know: UTA has been operating Siemens on the Sandy line with its 55-MPH
>>> PRW for five years.
>>>
>>> I will post pix and observations about UTA's TRAX system on the
>>> LightRailTraction group in the near future.
>>>
>>> (I was on a work-related trip to SLC. Yes, I'm back home now. Thank you,
>>> Amtrak, for getting me home on schedule.)
>>>
>>> Tim Gormley
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:07:10 -0800
>>> From: James B. Holland <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>> References: <000401c50255$fcae8a60$9c44f804 at default>
>>>
>>> Don't know that CAF is being criticized -- just the process of what is
>>> happening. My comments were strictly tongue-in-cheek.
>>>
>>> B--U--T....... since you bring it up -- I am NOT a fan of Siemens-Deuwag
>>> equipment. Everything I have ridden has a tendency to hunt, very strong
>>> tendency. One car in a train in Sacramento was so bad -- believe it was
>>> the artic truck but can't remember for sure -- was so bad that I got off
>>> the train fearing derailment at speed. Even the Portland 70% low-floor
>>> cars had this tendency when brand new -- haven't been back so I don't
>>> know how they have fared over time. Would hope to get up there soon but
>>> don't think I shall. The controllers look like Toy Train -- ok if
>>> it is a toy train but this is *supposed* to be prototype. And the
>>> disc brakes will set up automatically when the train *coasts* below a
>>> certain speed -- brake does NOT need to be applied. So motorman
>>> has difficulty with slow speeds at traffic points. And the discs
>>> can chatter severely when this happens. Nope, Not a fan of deuwag
>>> equipment -- You Can Have It.
>>>
>>> The Portland 70% low-floor cars are utilitarian but have not and shall
>>> not ride in the low-floor section -- too vulnerable from side impact
>>> ---- MUCH comments about that problem on the transit lists. Portland has
>>> The Very Best modern rail cars with those produced by Bombardier -- they
>>> are coming up on 20-years old. Portland will lose its appeal for
>>> me when those cars are retired.
>>>
>>> Jim__Holland
>>>
>>> Harold G. wrote:
>>>
>>> > Why all this criticism of CAF and Elmira?
>>>
>>> > I liked the CAF cars for Sacramento. Also the Ring line cars for
>>> > Amsterdam.
>>>
>>> > Harold Geissenheimer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>>> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>> > Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:47 AM
>>> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>>
>>> >>> James B. Holland asked:
>>>
>>> >>> CAF -- That's CAlifornia, F-Line, San Francisco.......
>>>
>>> >>> Keerect??
>>>
>>> >> try:
>>>
>>> >> http://www.caf.es/10/instalaciones.asp
>>>
>>> >> and it's practically in your back yard, Jim
>>>
>>> >> Looks like CAF also acquired the former Adtranz plant in Elmira. And
>>> >> we all know what got fixed up at this plant.
>>>
>>> >> John
>>>
>>> >>> John Swindler wrote:
>>>
>>> >>>> CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
>>> >>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet.
>>>
>>>>> The PCC was a good design, and it is what I grew up with in
>>>>> Pittsburgh. I have many fond memories, and am just a bit too young to
>>>>> remember the 'yellow cars.' But PCC was still a vehicle designed to
>>>>> last 20 years, and then be replaced with the next generation rolling
>>>>> stock. That's a paraphase from a speech given by Dr. Hirschfeld of
>>>>> ERPCC to the AERA (today's APTA) convention in 1935.
>>>>> My regret? Not making a lot more trips to Europe over the years.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Harold G." <transitmgr2 at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:44:43 -0500
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greetings to all. Was Elmira the rehaber of the Arden PCC cars?
>>>>>> Pretty good work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why all this criticism of CAF and Elmira?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I liked the CAF cars for Sacramento. Also the Ring line cars for
>>>>>> Amsterdam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Harold Geissenheimer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>>>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>>>> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>>>> Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:47 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> James B. Holland asked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> CAF -- That's CAlifornia, F-Line, San Francisco.......
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Keerect??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> try:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.caf.es/10/instalaciones.asp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and it's practically in your back yard, Jim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Looks like CAF also acquired the former Adtranz plant in Elmira.
>>>>>>> And we all know what got fixed up at this plant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John Swindler wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
>>>>>>>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet.
>>>>>>>>