[PRCo] Re: Nosing (Was FYI about PAT CAF cars)
Harold G.
transitmgr2 at earthlink.net
Thu Jan 27 02:18:00 EST 2005
greetings to all. The san diego original cars were of the U class
and worked a short line into the Frankfurt subway, Going to the
border at high speeds is something different. Harold
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken & Tracie <ktjosephson at earthlink.net>
To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:01 PM
Subject: [PRCo] Nosing (Was FYI about PAT CAF cars)
>So what causes the nosing? Truck design or the wheels? I remember reading
>about the North Shore Line solving high speed nosing problems by replacing
>the conical wheel tread design with a cylindrical tread design.
>
>K.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Fred Schneider" <fschnei at supernet.com>
>To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:17 PM
>Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>
>
>>I find this all very interesting ... the first time I rode Combino in
>>Augsburg
>> (Germany that is), I had the impression that the cab was nosing severely.
>> I've
>> seen the same problem elsewhere, most recently in Helsinki. I guess
I'm
>> not
>> alone in that opinion.
>>
>> "James B. Holland" wrote:
>>
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>>> > To: transitmgr2 at earthlink.net <transitmgr2 at earthlink.net>
>>> > Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:57 PM
>>> > Subject: RE: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>> >
>>> >> Hi Harold
>>> >>
>>> >> Just for the record, Harold, I don't have a problem with CAF and
>>> >> Elmira. Actually, I'm harassing Jim Holland a bit, who I've
>>> >> known for over 40 years. However, Jim's mired in the PCC
>>> >> era. I keep trying to nudge him a bit towards LRV operations,
>>> >> so far without much success.
>>> >
>>>
>>> Jim doesn't have a problem with CAF and Elmira, either. But John
>>> -- if you don't have an issue with CAF, then what does this statement
>>> mean???::::
>>>
>>> """CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet."""
>>>
>>> Jim doesn't like Deuwag -- when operating at speed it seems as though
>>> they are so doing under Severe Strain and if they go 1/2-mph faster they
>>> will explode. And just like the PRCo list, Jim isn't believed on
>>> the SFMuni list either. When I mentioned the hunting problems with
>>> Siemens many spoke up against the comment until Tim Gormley quoted the
>>> Salt Lake manager who strongly identifies Deuwag with severe hunting
>>> problems [forward of that email enclosed below.] Harry Peat
>>> (well known SF local, railfan, retired operator) says the Exact Same
>>> Thing about hunting problems with Deuwags and he has ridden every
>>> property in North America.
>>>
>>> Jim is Not stuck in the PCC era because TrolleyCars are *Primarily* a
>>> hobby. I quit a fine job as a research technician for a major
>>> ethical pharmaceutical company to fill a desire to operate a PCC and San
>>> Francisco is where my application was accepted. Interesting to
>>> note for this *RailFan* (a Title of which I am Proud) is that on my
>>> very first day of training I operated 1023, a car somewhat similar to
>>> 1700--1724 of PRCo, and on my very first day on my own after training, I
>>> operated 1040 -- again, a car very much like 1700--1724 of PRCo AND
>>> The Last PCC Built for use in North America!!!!!!!
>>>
>>> The Flip side of *supposedly* being stuck in a certain era is that:::
>>>
>>> 1.>-- there are those today who advocate rail simply to advocate rail
>>> and
>>>
>>> 2.>-- those today who think The Only Answer is Rail.
>>>
>>> I don't fall into either category --
>>>
>>> 1.>-- if people want and like rail, then left them have rail --
>>>
>>> 2.>-- if People Do Not Want and Do Not Like Rail, then don't beat
>>> them over the head to accept it.
>>>
>>> You must remember that I ushered in the lrv era here in SF with the
>>> advent of the Boeing cars and I wasn't enthralled with them. I
>>> recognized that my reaction to the lrv was not unlike that of the
>>> RailFans who abhorred the coming of the PCC but after forcing myself to
>>> like the lrv I could never quite like it as I do the PCC.
>>> Passengers actually waited for my car because they got a smooth ride
>>> (thought All lrvs were smooth!!) and managers liked my performance but
>>> there was alot of stress with the job because they dearly wanted much
>>> faster running times than with PCCs and schedules were Way Too Tight.
>>> Again, it goes to the Hobby aspect -- I like PCCs AND the PRCo
>>> low-floor cars -- I DO remember them and even asking my Mom to wait
>>> downtown until one came along so we could ride it home -- she didn't
>>> like it because her heels stuck in the flooring but she waited and we
>>> rode!!
>>>
>>> Why does any in the world enjoy the hobby they have? It is
>>> something we can't sufficiently explain -- one likes what he likes
>>> and *I__Like__Ike____A--N--D____PCCs!!!!!!!* The rail cars to
>>> follow PCCs just Do Not Interest me for the same inexplicable
>>> reasons that PCCs DO interest me. After several years on lrvs,
>>> and after the end of PCCs (J-Church last to go,) I transferred to
>>> Trolley Coaches because of family needs since my seniority went
>>> downhill -- after just 1.5-years at Muni on PCCs I had Sat, Sun, and
>>> Holidays off -- with advent of lrvs all the old-timers bumped me back
>>> to Tue and Wed off.
>>>
>>> Good Golly, Miss Molly, VTA is right next door with lrvs and I haven't
>>> ridden anything down there in a decade -- not even hysterical
>>> cars. Much new stuff is opening as well -- haven't ridden the
>>> Mountain View Line. Do Not intend to go just to ride what is
>>> there ---- The Only Place I do that is Portland, Oregon, and when
>>> the Bombardier cars are gone I doubt I'll make many trips to
>>> Portland. (((Besides, Tri-Met condemned and razed the house that
>>> I wanted to buy and replaced it with maintenance buildings!!!)))
>>>
>>> Have NOT ridden anything in the LaLa area even though I had rellies in
>>> 3-different locations there -- I have seen a portion of the Long Beach
>>> line but That Is All. I am not personally interested in the
>>> equipment and I won't go to ride it. Doesn't mean the systems are
>>> bad -- I am Just Not Interested!!!!!!! If I lived in the area I
>>> might consider it for a commute to work.
>>>
>>> I live on the N-Judah lrv line here and if I am serious about going
>>> downtown, I drive over to Fulton and take the trolley coach because it
>>> runs much more frequently and is Just As Fast ---- and FAR More
>>> Reliable!
>>>
>>> Jim isn't stuck in the PCC era -- the PCC era And Before is Jim's
>>> Hobby -- Not Anything Since, Thank You -- and I am pleased with my
>>> hobby.
>>>
>>> Jim__Holland
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: (OT) Re: [SFMuni] Siemens___lrvs
>>> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:46:49 -0800
>>> From: Tim Gormley <t....... at ..........net>
>>> Reply-To: SFMuni at ........com
>>> To: <SFMuni at ........com>
>>> References: <20041212211913.7068.qmail at web52708.mail.yahoo.com>
>>> <41BCC806.9080804 at comcast.net> <41BCD6BD.9000203 at P-R-Co.com>
>>>
>>> > James B. Holland wrote >
>>>
>>> > Siemens has a Very Strong Tendency to hunt --
>>> > side to side oscillation within the track gauge --
>>> > and this with the artic truck. It was so
>>> > pronounced in Sacramento once that I
>>> > exited the train fearing a derailment
>>> > at speed. I have noticed this on
>>> > Every Single Siemen system I have ridden:::::::
>>>
>>> > San Diego
>>>
>>> > Sacramento
>>>
>>> > Calgary
>>>
>>> > Edmonton
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Good observation, Jim. Your observation is shared by the man who
>>> runs the Siemens-heavy system in Salt Lake City. Alan Miner, Utah
>>> Transit Authority (UTA) Manager of Rail Operations, mentioned that
>>> tendency to hunt when I talked with him onboard a former VTA UTDC car in
>>> SLC last night (Friday, 12/17/2004). I was riding UTA 1042, the
>>> ex-VTA lead car of a 3-car ex-VTA train, at 5 pm last night when three
>>> UTA managers boarded and congregated around the operator's cab. I
>>> engaged Mr. Miner in conversation and asked him how he liked the ex-VTA
>>> cars. He said he liked them and mentioned a reason why was because
>>> they don't have the strong tendency to hunt like the Siemens cars,
>>> especially on the high-speed portion of the Sandy line. He should
>>> know: UTA has been operating Siemens on the Sandy line with its 55-MPH
>>> PRW for five years.
>>>
>>> I will post pix and observations about UTA's TRAX system on the
>>> LightRailTraction group in the near future.
>>>
>>> (I was on a work-related trip to SLC. Yes, I'm back home now. Thank you,
>>> Amtrak, for getting me home on schedule.)
>>>
>>> Tim Gormley
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:07:10 -0800
>>> From: James B. Holland <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>> References: <000401c50255$fcae8a60$9c44f804 at default>
>>>
>>> Don't know that CAF is being criticized -- just the process of what is
>>> happening. My comments were strictly tongue-in-cheek.
>>>
>>> B--U--T....... since you bring it up -- I am NOT a fan of Siemens-Deuwag
>>> equipment. Everything I have ridden has a tendency to hunt, very strong
>>> tendency. One car in a train in Sacramento was so bad -- believe it was
>>> the artic truck but can't remember for sure -- was so bad that I got off
>>> the train fearing derailment at speed. Even the Portland 70% low-floor
>>> cars had this tendency when brand new -- haven't been back so I don't
>>> know how they have fared over time. Would hope to get up there soon but
>>> don't think I shall. The controllers look like Toy Train -- ok if
>>> it is a toy train but this is *supposed* to be prototype. And the
>>> disc brakes will set up automatically when the train *coasts* below a
>>> certain speed -- brake does NOT need to be applied. So motorman
>>> has difficulty with slow speeds at traffic points. And the discs
>>> can chatter severely when this happens. Nope, Not a fan of deuwag
>>> equipment -- You Can Have It.
>>>
>>> The Portland 70% low-floor cars are utilitarian but have not and shall
>>> not ride in the low-floor section -- too vulnerable from side impact
>>> ---- MUCH comments about that problem on the transit lists. Portland has
>>> The Very Best modern rail cars with those produced by Bombardier -- they
>>> are coming up on 20-years old. Portland will lose its appeal for
>>> me when those cars are retired.
>>>
>>> Jim__Holland
>>>
>>> Harold G. wrote:
>>>
>>> > Why all this criticism of CAF and Elmira?
>>>
>>> > I liked the CAF cars for Sacramento. Also the Ring line cars for
>>> > Amsterdam.
>>>
>>> > Harold Geissenheimer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>>> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>> > Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:47 AM
>>> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>>
>>> >>> James B. Holland asked:
>>>
>>> >>> CAF -- That's CAlifornia, F-Line, San Francisco.......
>>>
>>> >>> Keerect??
>>>
>>> >> try:
>>>
>>> >> http://www.caf.es/10/instalaciones.asp
>>>
>>> >> and it's practically in your back yard, Jim
>>>
>>> >> Looks like CAF also acquired the former Adtranz plant in Elmira. And
>>> >> we all know what got fixed up at this plant.
>>>
>>> >> John
>>>
>>> >>> John Swindler wrote:
>>>
>>> >>>> CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
>>> >>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet.
>>>
>>> >> The PCC was a good design, and it is what I grew up with in
>>> >> Pittsburgh. I have many fond memories, and am just a bit too young to
>>> >> remember the 'yellow cars.' But PCC was still a vehicle designed to
>>> >> last 20 years, and then be replaced with the next generation rolling
>>> >> stock. That's a paraphase from a speech given by Dr. Hirschfeld of
>>> >> ERPCC to the AERA (today's APTA) convention in 1935.
>>> >> My regret? Not making a lot more trips to Europe over the years.
>>> >>
>>> >> John
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> From: "Harold G." <transitmgr2 at earthlink.net>
>>> >>> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>> >>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>> >>> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:44:43 -0500
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Greetings to all. Was Elmira the rehaber of the Arden PCC cars?
>>> >>> Pretty good work.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Why all this criticism of CAF and Elmira?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I liked the CAF cars for Sacramento. Also the Ring line cars for
>>> >>> Amsterdam.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Harold Geissenheimer
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >>> From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>>> >>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>> >>> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>> >>> Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:47 AM
>>> >>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: FYI about PAT CAF cars
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>> James B. Holland asked:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> CAF -- That's CAlifornia, F-Line, San Francisco.......
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Keerect??
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> try:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> http://www.caf.es/10/instalaciones.asp
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> and it's practically in your back yard, Jim
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Looks like CAF also acquired the former Adtranz plant in Elmira.
>>> >>>> And we all know what got fixed up at this plant.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> John
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> John Swindler wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> CAF also has a plant in Sacramento. Suspect that there is more to
>>> >>>>>> this saga that hasn't come out yet.
>>> >>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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