[PRCo] Re: 20 Rebecca

John Swindler j_swindler at hotmail.com
Sun May 1 16:13:08 EDT 2005 


This map section from 1901 shows streetcar track on South St. turning onto 
Grant and then crossing the Union Bridge.  It implies a route from 
Manchester area, not Allegheny business area.  Horsecar or electric??  
unknown.

http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=01v01p08


This 1903 map shows the Pittsburgh end of track coming off Union Bridge, 
then along Water St. to Penn

http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=03sv3p01


Here's 1923, Pittsburgh end.  Note that tracks are shown on Manchester 
Bridge, but not connected to anything at the point - just stub end.

http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=25v0507a



By 1929, looks like double tracks came off Manchester Bridge and made turn 
into a temporary ramp in Duquesne Way to access the freight station.  
Interesting.

http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=29v10p10


Here's northside in 1925.  Nothing is shown on the Manchester Bridge.

http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=25v0507a


Just for record, Exposition Park (predecessor of Forbes Field) is now (1925) 
occupied by B&O yards.

And that might be an interesting bit of trivia that could tie in with Fred's 
comment about commercial development in Allegheny.

Unfortunately this is all insufficient to jump to any conclusions, but 
tantilizing suspicions.

John










>From: "Edward H. Lybarger" <trams at adelphia.net>
>Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>Subject: [PRCo] Re: 20 Rebecca
>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:21:02 -0400
>
>Thanks for looking this up, Fred.  I thought it had an odor associated with
>it, but I've been away and haven't been able to get to the route cards.
>
>EHL
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org]On Behalf Of Fred
>Schneider
>Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 12:08 PM
>To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>Cc: Dick Kotulak
>Subject: [PRCo] Re: 20 Rebecca
>
>
>As I read the 1930 date for service over the Manchester Bridge, I was
>puzzled.  That bridge seemed far too old to get trolley service that
>late.  So I started digging.
>
>Sorry Bill.  Like far too many things in the book you cited, this is
>just one more false "fact."   Best that you don't use it as a reference
>source.  Unfortunately, once something is in print, people accept it as
>gospel and you can go through all sorts of girations and never correct
>the damage.
>
>The Pittsburgh Railways route cards show that 20 REBECCA was shifted
>from the 6th Street Bridge to the Manchester Bridge on June 1, 1925, not
>1930.  Route 112A (or public route 17) was created that same day as a
>shuttle connecting the Manchester Bridge (and route 112, or 20) with the
>North Side commercial district.
>
>Both used the name Rebecca Street ... 20 or 112 was the main route, 17
>or 112-A was the shuttle.  The first time that the word Reesdale Shuttle
>
>turns up is on the route card beginning in 1936.    Old institutions die
>
>hard, even though the city changed the street name in 1907.
>
>Now the question in my mind becomes WHY IN THE HELL WERE TROLLEYS NOT
>USED ON THE MANCHESTER BRIDGE BEFORE 1925?  Is there a separate route
>that I'm missing?  And that is why I need to spend a whole lot of time
>interpreting the route cards.  It could easily be understood that
>trolleys could not run that way when a wood
>covered bridge stretched from the Point over to Manchester.  But the
>steel Manchester Bridge was a whole lot older than the second steel
>Point Bridge ... opened sometime in the first half of 1915.  If you want
>
>to read about it ... cutout and paste this link into your navigator:
><http://pghbridges.com/articles/PA3-11.htm>.   There were no changes in
>route between 10-29-11 and 8-27-15, and the 1915 entry shows cars on the
>
>6th Street Bridge.
>
>Why did it last continue so long on the 6th Street Bridge?  Perhaps
>because the Lower North Side was still an viable commercial center and
>because there was nothing in the Point but warehousing and junk stores.
>The shift to the Manchester Bridge in 1925 may have had something to do
>with the decline of the North Side ... one might imagine that it was a
>cause and affect situation with the cause being a decline and the affect
>
>being the change to a shorter and faster route.   Or was the cause of
>the move the
>disruption owing to the removal of the old 6th Street Bridge and its
>replacement with the present suspension bridge ... that happened
>somewhere in the middle 1920s.  I have not bothered to look it up ...
>one of you'ns can pull up the bridge reference to it.
>
>Maybe some one on the list would like to research the story of putting
>rails on the bridge.  Were four stringers placed 62 1/2 inches on center
>
>when the bridge was built for later use?  Were the rails put on the
>bridge in 1915 and used only for rare special moves?   Were the rails
>there but no wires?  Or was there some other route?
>
>Fred Schneider
>
>Bill Robb wrote:
>
> > As soon as I hit "send" I realized that I switched the
> > date of Route 20 being routed over the Manchester
> > Bridge and Duquesne Way with an earlier routing.
> >
> > The correct date for Rebecca cars over the Manchester
> > Bridge and along Duquesne Way to downtown is January
> > 6, 1930.
> >
> > Sorry for the error.
> >
> > (My info is from Pittsburgh Railways Volume 1.)
> >
> > Bill Robb
> >
> > --- Bill Robb <bill937ca at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > There would be a conflict.  Route 17 was Reedsdale.
> > > Both lines ran on Reedsdale so another name was
> > > needed
> > > anyways. Route 20 was on Reedsdale west of Galveston
> > > and Route 17 on Reedsdale from Allegheny to Cremo.
> > > The
> > > Reedsdale cars did not enter downtown but turned
> > > back
> > > at Federal Street. Rebecca cars entered downtown by
> > > Duquesne Way after January 1, 1923.
> > >
> > > Both lines were abandoned October 13, 1951.
> > >
> > > Bill Robb
> > >
> > > --- Matt Barry <mrb190+ at pitt.edu> wrote:
> > > > I saw this little blurb in an article on a former
> > > > Pittsburgh resident:
> > > >
> > > > "Rebecca Street became Reedsdale Street in 1907,
> > > > when Allegheny became
> > > > part of Pittsburgh."
> > > >
> > > > (the article is here:
> > > > http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04127/311671.stm
> > > )
> > > >
> > > > So, Pittsburgh Railways never changed the route
> > > name
> > > > of route 20, even
> > > > after the city re-named "Rebecca Street" to
> > > > "Reedsdale?"
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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