[PRCo] Re: "Johnstown" trolley at Kenosha

[Fred Schneider]

One would suspect your statement is correct ... there is rust on the El Paso car
in Baltimore but probably not incredibly bad.  It needs to be jacked up and have
the trucks changed before it can go over a pit and be studied.    Those cars
spent their entire working lives in the desert, either in San Diego or El Paso.
But all the word desert implies is that rain is minimal ... maybe 10 to 15
inches a year instead of the 40 to which I'm accustomed, and it comes down in
torrents in only a few days.  Snow does happen but it is rare and usually melts
by noon without anyone worrying about removal.

The Los Angeles cars were also probably in pretty good shape when they went to
Cairo, Egypt.   I have never followed what happened to the cars in Cairo.  I've
always been a generalist and roster details had little interest.

But the worst were those that were used in snow climates after the public
insisted that roads be bare and salt became the preferred method.  The 1138 at
Arden was in better shape than 1723, not so much because it only ran for 21
years but because it ran mostly in an era when cinders were used to maintain
traction in snow instead of the period when we melted the white stuff with salt.

Regarding the statement that I never followed the Cairo cars ... tracking cars
is not my thing.  The rosters in the PCC books were largely the product of
Carlson and Bromley ... I had more fun finding the cemetery where Thomas Conway
was buried and then going from that to the cemetery manager and his records and
then to Conway's relatives to find the picture as well as tracking down Brill
Rossell's kids through the U S Naval Academy alumni office.  Everyone has his
own interests.

Ken & Tracie wrote:

> Was TCRT one of the cars that came to SHRT from Newark? Or was it one of the
> cars which went directly from TCRT to SHRT?
>
> I read that the Cleveland PCC at IRM needed extensive steel replacement.
> Again, I'll cc this to Scott Greig to try to get a confirmation about this.
>
> I would guess that the best place to find a solid American PCC body would be
> El Paso.... :-)
>
> K.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred Schneider" <fschnei at supernet.com>
> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:14 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: "Johnstown" trolley at Kenosha
>
> > Tell me Herb ...
> >
> > What is the condition of the car?  I saw some of those cars on Shaker and
> > they looked pretty damn ratty about 1980 or 1981.  I suspect the body
> > steel was pretty rusty under the paint.  I also remember visiting Toronto
> > in the winter of 1969 and noting that about 2 cars out of 3 were covered
> > in white salt spray ... TTC simply could not wash them fast enough.  And
> > the
> > washing only got the surface salt ... it missed what was thrown up on the
> > underside of the car and what was deposited in step wells and on the
> > floors.
> >
> > After having seen what BSM / MTA had to do to the Baltimore 7407, what was
> > done to Pittsburgh 1138 and 1723 and Philly 2723 and what the lads in
> > Brookville did to the Philly cars and finally the "moth eaten" steel on
> > one of the Newark / Twin City cars that is being patched together for
> > Muni, I suspect there was a whole lot of hidden body cancer on those
> > Cleveland
> > cars.   I would expect the body post caps and the ends of the carlines are
> > probably pretty badly rusted, and that the lower ends of the body posts
> > might be almost non-existent.  When the Baltimore museum car was torn
> > apart, only one body post on the entire left side was not rusted off at
> > the bottom.
> >
> > If you look at Minnesota Transportation Museum's web site, you will get
> > some idea what the TCRT 322 looked like under the skin when it arrived
> > from Shaker Heights.
> >
> > Of course none of this is criticism of the PCC.  Its design life was 20
> > years and I'm talking about the condition of cars that are more than 50
> > years out of the box.
> >
> > Fred III
> >
> > hrbran99 at adelphia.net wrote:
> >
> >> Cleveland Transit System PCC Car 4223:
> >>
> >> Delivered to CTS between June and August, 1946, operated out of Brooklyn
> >> Station on West 25th Street lines. Ended Cleveland service April 27,
> >> 1953. Shipped to TTC later in 1953. Returned to Cleveland August 15, 1978
> >> for Shaker Rapid service. Was TTC 4648. Was first (lead) car on "Welcome
> >> Home" run signifying its return to Cleveland rail service. Sold to IRM
> >> 1982.
> >> HerB
> >>
> >> ---- Ken & Tracie <ktjosephson at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> . IRM also has an ex-Cleveland PCC
> >> > (a Pullman, Cleveland Transit System 4223.) I do not know if the
> >> > ex-Cleveland car came directly from the TTC or if it was one of the
> >> > cars
> >> > sent to Shaker Heights from Toronto. I seem to remember reading in
> >> > "Rail and
> >> > Wire" that 4223 was receiving extensive sheet metal replacement.
> >> >
> >> > > K.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
> >> > To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> >> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 1:28 PM
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Is Illinois Ry Museum rebuilding an ex. Cleveland PCC car from CTS
> >> > > via
> >> > > TTC,
> >> > > Shaker?  Or do I have this mixed up with an ex. Kansas City car???
> >> > >
> >> > > John
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> >