[PRCo] Re: Braking Systems

Wed Oct 19 18:23:26 EDT 2005

You took that incorrectly Jim.   I didn't say the operator was  
wrong.   If anything I said PAT management was wrong, nay STUPID in  
all capital letters, for removing the derail which might just have  
protected the operator.   The word young may have bee incorrect.     
I'm also using the word might because it was a timed derail.

I think that Derrrick's system strips colors, italics, bolding,  
etc.   If it didn't, I might go into your list and color those  
numbers that I think might be worth investingating.   Certainly,  
1600s in 1965 could be any fender bender .... you just don't waste  
money fixing them.   My eye fell on one war time accident in Forest  
Hills and that may be the reason for the spacing signals ... there  
was a bad one there in a fog.

On Oct 19, 2005, at 4:46 PM, James B. Holland wrote:

> Fred Schneider wrote:
> .
>
>
>> Yes. Broken motor lead so the dynamic brakes failed. Because they
>> failed, all the motorman had was drum brakes. He was young,
>> inadequately trained, and didn't understand why he was sliding  
>> through
>> all the stops on the way in that morning. And the problem was
>> compounded because PAT removed the timed derail at South Hills
>> Junction .... had it been there, the car would probably have been on
>> the ground at the top of the hill instead of slamming into the P&LE
>> station. But if memories are short and we can't remember that we had
>> two previous runaways in the tunnel, well, you get the picture.
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2005, at 12:37 PM, Boris Cefer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Perhaps the most tragic story of a streetcar which lost its brakes
>>> (well, in the PCC era) was an accident of 1727 at Station square on
>>> 28th October 1987.
>>> It was discussed on this list several years back, but others may add
>>> some details again.
>>>
>>> Boris
>>>
>>
>>
> .
> You are Leaving Out the Most Important Part of the Story.
> .
> The Operator was  -*Told-*  that he had new trucks on the car with  
> Newly
> Machined Tires and that these Newly Machined Tires would have a Great
> Propensity to Slip / Slide in Both Acceleration and Braking on wet
> rails.       The Operator was a veteran of  ({[pat]})  but only had
> 6-months experience on rails.       So when the car slipped and  
> slid as
> predicted, What Would A Novice To Rails Think in this specific  
> situation?
> .
> Other ops here in SF were impressed that I caught on so fast to  
> sticking
> drums  --  NEVER  experienced such anywhere but SF and in several  
> weeks
> of training here that happened a Multitude of Times.
> .
> Very Easy to state that the  ({[pat]})  Op was negligent with Our
> Hindsight but in Reality, Would I Personally have recognized the
> difference between a slide from new wheels or lack of brakes  
> because of
> a loss of dynamics and worn out drums As A New Railfan Operator under
> these conditions??       I would like to say Yes but I Can  NOT  do so
> with any authority nor guarantee!!!!!!!       I  AM  quite familiar  
> with
> the hiss of sliding wheels, even on PRCo, so the lack of same in this
> 1727 incident may have given me a clue.       Also, remember that  
> it was
> Verboten to use sand unless dire emergency on the Interurban prw  --
> wasn't this a Library Car?!       And with the lack of anything to hit
> on prw, an emergency did not exist!       Using sand and then still
> sliding would have been another clue that Something Else Was Amiss!!
>       (Also, what many people Never Understand  --  necessary to have
> sand  UNDER  ALL  WHEELS  before hitting brakes to prevent a slide  --
> hitting sander and brakes At Same Time rarely does the job!!!!!!!)
> .
> The Operator in this case was listed as an Hero because, once he
> realized the car was out of control in the tunnel, he had everyone  
> move
> to the rear of the car and one woman who was frozen in fear in her  
> seat,
> this woman He Picked Up And Carried To The Rear of the car.
> Injuries  --  but everyone survived, yes?
> .
> What about the double-ender that ran away in the tunnel Christmas Eve
> with packed Car  --  argument between op and motorman  --  trolley  
> pole
> dewired and conductor couldn't get out to attend to same  --  op mad
> that he had to do work of someone else  --  also inebriated  --  can't
> find info on this one offhand  --  1917???????
> .
> .
> Here is an edited listing of  some  scrappings due to accidents  --
> 4300s Good(?) showing here:::::::
>
> 3702   1943.01.18   Collision and Fire Walthers Stop
>
> 3709   1943.01.18   Collision and Fire Walthers Stop
>
> 4210   1944.08.01   Collision, Castle Shannon
>
> 4318   1942.03.20   Fire on the road.
>
> 4328   1945.01.24   Damage by locomotive.
>
> 4346   1945.07.14   Fire on the road.
>
> 4355   1951.11.03   Collision at Washington.
>
> 4356   1951.12.29   Fire at Tylderdale.
>
> 4364   1944.08.15   Collision with 1410 Ardmore Blvd.
>
> 4365   1950.09.18   Collision
>
> 4368   1945.05.15   Collision Tunnel
>
> 4378   1951.09.14   Collision with truck
>
> 4381   1951.08.07?   Collision
>
> 4386   1951.08.07?   Collision
>
> 4390   1952.05.19   Collision on Charter
>                                      apparently Not  PERC.
>
> 4708   1943.11.15   Collision Tunnel
>
> 4776   1928.12.06   Demolished in Collision
>
> 4800   1951.10.29   Collision
>
> 4801   1948.09.28   Collision with 5409
>
> 4887   1938.01.27   Collision E.Pgh.
>
> 5018   1944.11.14   Collision with 1226 Munhall loop
>
> 5077   1931.01.02   Run away on Liberty Ave. Hill, car demolished
> (I......City Brewery)
>
> 5247   1948.03.12   Badly damaged in derailment.
>
> 5409   1948.09.28   Collision with 4801.
>
> 1038   1959.xx.xx   Collision with truck 28th Liberty
>                          Thought it was Penn - may have snoozepaper
>                          article.
>
> 1213   1961.xx.xx   Collision SHJ
>
> 1242   1960.xx.xx   Collision with M0283, Dawn Jct.
>
> 1261   1963.07.08   Collision with 1645 38A.
>
> 1267   1962.11.26   Collision with 140-0 Smithfield Bridge
>
> 1297   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision with truck Ohio Federal
>
> 1299   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision with truck Ohio Brighton
>
> 1437   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision
>
> 1454   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision
>
> 1529   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision with truck lower Forbes
>
> 1608   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision with auto Wilkinsburg
>
> 1629   1958.04.23   Collision with 1296 Sandusky Gen Robinson
>
> 1645   1963.07.08   Collision with 1261 38A - Knew this Operator.
>
> 1668   xxxx.xx.xx   Collision inside Tunnel
>
>
> The following equipment was scrapped because of Homewood Fire::
>
> 4131
> 4826
> 4851
> 1026
> 1051
> 1155
> 1220
> 1281
> 1294
> 1600
> 1648
> 1682
> 1701
> 1725
> M0197
>
>
>
>
> Jim__Holland
>
>
> I__Like__Ike.......And__PCCs!!
>
> down with pantographs ---- UP___WITH___TROLLEYPOLES!!!!!!!
>
>
>