[PRCo] Re: PAT trolley routes

[John Swindler]

Thought Dallas-McKinney Ave. used some ex DR&T trackage originally, but has 
since replaced the 'historic' rails.  Also thought that Tampa was entirely 
new.

Concerning rails picked up in Pittsburgh - not unless street rebuilt.  Check 
with city engineers office.  They 'should' have a record of what's 
underneath the pavement.  (I checked with Harrisburg city engineers office 
some 20 years ago, and copied track maps of all the intersections where 
streetcar tracks were still under the pavement - along with list of streets 
with rails.  Records kept for sewer work)

Would PAT restore service by scrapping off pavement?  Not in my lifetime.  
<g>
Might a historic trolley operation start with new infrastructure (rails, 
subgrade)?  That's a different question, and might have very small chance of 
happening.  But I don't see any leadership in Pittsburgh area interested in 
making this happen.

Concerning Fred IIIs comment about people driving to spa - not only will 
Americans drive to spa, but they will demand a parking spot by front door 
<gg>  We have created a 'convenient' society that condemns people to the 
auto in too may cases.

Transit seems to do best when there is something to impede free flow of auto 
traffic - like a river or a lake.  I suspect that the Delaware River is what 
makes the PATCO line work.  And there is this bay in San Francisco.  Doesn't 
Portland have a river adjacent to downtown??  And west side line goes under 
a hill??

Concerning recent increase in transit use because of gas prices - Dallas is 
up 11 % on buses and 18% on rail.  Pittsburgh also up 5% on bus and 11% on 
rail.  But that is only a small fraction of total auto travel in region.  
99% of the public not affected by higher gas prices.  Transit should retain 
some of this increased usage - until next employee strike or next funding 
crisis/fare increase/service reduction.

John




>From: <mtoytrain at bellsouth.net>
>Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>Subject: [PRCo] Re: PAT trolley routes
>Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:25:56 -0400
>
>    Fred
>    I think in Dallas they opened a line that had been paved over, saw it 
>when I traveled on business
>    to Big D.   Forgot the name of the street,    Tampa, did they restore 
>an old line or put a new line in?
>    I agree at one time we had 3 vehicles for 2 people!   American 
>lifestyle demands individual
>    transportation.
> >
>    Fred enjoy your writing immensely and your facts are super
>
>    jerry
>
>
> > From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> > Date: 2005/10/23 Sun PM 07:00:38 EDT
> > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > Subject: [PRCo] Re: PAT trolley routes
> >
> > I'm not going to say get real.   I can think of a case in St. Louis
> > in the early 1960s where asphalt was temporarily scraped off rails.
> > But I'm going to ask you to look at the numbers, look at what is
> > happening in the rest of the world, look at what is unique in the
> > American mind (we love our cars),  and draw your own conclusions.
> >
> > Picture this scenario, Jerry:
> >
> >                      The Europeans have been living with high fuel
> > costs for a lot longer than we have and it has failed to discourage
> > them from driving automobiles.  Nor has it discouraged them from
> > owning as many automobiles as we do.   It has only discouraged them
> > from driving as many kilometers as we do and from owning monstrous
> > SUVs like we do.  Their annual auto mileage is probably around 7000
> > miles a year compared to around 15,000 in this country.
> >
> > Ownership of cars:
> > Japan  0.394 car per 1 person
> > France 0.463 car per 1 person
> > Germany 0.511 car per 1 person (Note this is higher than the U. S.
> > and gasoline is much more expensive)
> > Sweden 0.436 car per 1 person
> > United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, etc.) .372
> > Canada 0.444
> > Mexico 0.243 (1990 data)
> > United States 0.481 car per person.
> >
> > You might also note that this is crude data it that it is cars per
> > people and not cars per persons of the age where they could hold
> > licenses.   These were also the numbers I could quickly find.    They
> > came from a US DOT file.   I think I remember that Switzerland also
> > had more cars per capita than the U. S. and they also have, in my
> > mind, the best public transport system on the European continent.
> > Point is that in the United States, France and Germany, the numbers
> > round to a car for every two people.
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > Before I start out on these next theme, I acknowledge that there are
> > some exceptions.  San Francisco and New York are so congested that
> > they have become forced U. S. exceptions to what follows.   Portland,
> > Oregon is an exception which I admit I do not fully understand.   It
> > seems to have managed to keep its downtown and accepted trolleys.
> > Yet only a few hours away, Seattle seems to want to fight to the
> > death to keep automobiles.    With the preamble established... Now
> > think about the mind set in different countries.  We talk about doing
> > all sorts of things in this country because they work in other
> > countries and then we find out they just don't work here.
> >
> > The Europeans freely accept banning traffic from downtown streets.  I
> > can't think of one western European country where it hasn't been done
> > and has been overwhelmingly accepted by the populace.   (The east
> > still needs to find out how disastrous the auto can be.)  Now can you
> > imagine an American being told he has to park his car somewhere else
> > and walk down the street?  Get real.  Can you imagine an American
> > city with a scheme like Amsterdam where you cannot drive through the
> > city ... if you want to drive from one quarter to another, you need
> > to go outside, around, and back in simply because autos are an
> > infidel?    Can you imagine an American city with a $10 a day tax if
> > you want to bring your car into it ?   London has such a tax and not
> > without the BMW owners squealing that they "can't afford it."   But
> > somehow the world goes on.    I cannot think of a single German city
> > where automobiles are not banned from the central core.   That's
> > where people walk.   Not where cars run over people.  The most
> > affluent shopping street in Zurich, Switzerland is open to
> > pedestrians and public transport vehicles.
> >
> >   I can think of several examples in the U. S. where it was tried.
> > Downtown Buloxi, MS ... they tried to turn the old downtown into a
> > downtown mall with a covered street and parking behind every store.
> > All that did was drive everyone to the brand new mall at Gulfport.
> > And another good example was East Liberty.   So just because it
> > worked somewhere else, don't expect an American to get out of his
> > automobile.   He or she will go to Europe, think about how wonderful
> > the concept is, then come home and reject it because it means getting
> > out of the car.   (I gave up looking for international weight charts
> > after 15 minutes ... the 50th percentile for men in the U. S. is 180
> > lbs but I can't find other countries.   But my opinion is we are much
> > heavier simply because I've heavy but I can find my sizes in stores
> > in the U. S. but not in Europe.)  So we drive to the spa to work out.
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > There was a piece on "All Things Considered," the late afternoon
> > Public Radio news show last week that looked at increased transit
> > riding because of higher gas prices in several U. S. cities.  I think
> > Houston might have been one of the cities.   Another was much
> > smaller.   The conclusion reached was simple.   Paraphrased, "As soon
> > as the public perceives the cost of gasoline is again affordable,
> > they will be back in their cars."   And guess what, Jerry.   That is
> > the same thing that happened in several previous fuel cost surges.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Oct 23, 2005, at 4:38 PM, <mtoytrain at bellsouth.net>
> > <mtoytrain at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> > >    Picture this scenario, fuel prices continue to rise higher and
> > > higher and the average guy can't
> > >    afford gasoline at 4 or 5 buicks a gallong,  bus fares equally
> > > too high, what is the possiblity of
> > >    PAT opening up former trolley lines?    Have all the rails been
> > > picked up?   any just paved over
> > >    I know you all are saying Matsick get real that won't happen!
> > > Never say never, just curious what
> > >    has happened to the various routes if the track is still there?
> > >
> > >    Jerry Matsick
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> From: "James B. Holland" <PRCoPCC at P-R-Co.com>
> > >> Date: 2005/10/23 Sun PM 04:30:00 EDT
> > >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Homewood + early PCC days
> > >>
> > >> Boris Cefer wrote:
> > >> .
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> OK.
> > >>>
> > >>> I attached a picture, a draft of Homewood shops. The picture was
> > >>> drawn
> > >>> by a guy from Czechoslovakia who visited Pittsburgh (and also other
> > >>> PCC operations) in 1949 to observe the PCC design, operation,
> > >>> maintenance and other aspects. No, you did not have commies
> > >>> spying on
> > >>> Pittsburgh. Nor Nazis as Jim indicated after my statement regarding
> > >>> previous visit of a Czechoslovakian guy to Pittsburgh in the early
> > >>> 1939. The guy then made a long report (I have it) on everything
> > >>> relative the PCC technology (various details of Westinghouse and GE
> > >>> development and improvements) and streetcar operation in Pgh and
> > >>> several other US cities. His conclusion was that as early as in 1939
> > >>> the Westinghouse equipped cars were more popular than GEs.    I hope
> > >>> it is clear.
> > >>>
> > >>> B
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Loud  And  Clear!
> > >>
> > >> The  World   K-n-o-w-s   That  Europe  Chooses  Nothing  But  The
> > >> Best    ----    WEstinghouse!!!!!!!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Jim__Holland
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I__Like__Ike.......And__PCCs!!
> > >>
> > >> down with pantographs ---- UP___WITH___TROLLEYPOLES!!!!!!!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>