[PRCo] Re: PRR Federal St. Station & What Dreams May Come

Fred Schneider fwschneider at comcast.net
Thu Apr 12 12:12:43 EDT 2007 

The line was hot all those years but generally unused, Bob and all  
who might be interested.   The plan for the resumption of service  
called for a new contact wire over both tracks from Harrisburg to  
Philadelphia because the original 1938 wire is worn down almost to  
the clips.   AMTRAK went to great pains to announce all the  
improvements they were doing ... welded rail, new wire, etc.   But  
they forgot to do the wire.   No money.   They've pushed speeds up to  
over 100 mph in territory that was once maxed at 75 mph with the old  
wire.

Did they shorten the running time to New York?   No.  It is no  
shorter than it was in 1938.   In many cases it's longer.

Reason is that nothing runs through the New York - Pittsburgh Subway  
at ZOO interlocking today.   All the trains go into 30th Street  
Station (because most of the traffic on this end focuses on  
Philadelphia) and then trains reverse directions and go back out to  
New York.   They're running it as a push pull service.   The original  
Metroliner coaches from 1968 were brought back from LA-San Diego  
service (some had been converted to cab cars for that service) and  
the ASEA or Swedish Meat Balls are used for power.    Look at the  
Amtrak website and you'll see some pretty unconscionable layover  
times at 30th Street in spite of using push-pulls in order to speed  
up the service by eliminating the diesel to electric power change in  
Philadelphia.

Amtrak is doing what they do best ... they are calling it a long  
distance train because their government charter calls for running a  
long distance passenger railroad.   They claim they are not supposed  
to be in the commuter business.   But both Harrisburg-Philadelphia  
and New York - Philadelphia are commuter operations.   They first  
eliminated all the local New York - New Brunswick, New York - Trenton  
and New York -Bay Head trains by giving them to New JerseyTransit.    
They gave all the Philadelphia - Trenton trains to SEPTA.   Then they  
managed to eliminate all the Philadelphia - New York hourly trains or  
"Clockers" and SEPTA increased their service frequency to Trenton to  
hourly and NJT increased theirs to half hourly.   Amtrak reduced  
their car fleet tremendously with that change ... you see that in one  
of the recent TRAINS magazines.  It might have been something like a  
1/3 drop in the national car fleet.   They also extended changed all  
the Harrisburg - Philadelphia (Suburban Station) trains to Harrisburg  
- 30th Street Philadelphia - New York trains which gives them a feel  
good attitude that they are in the long distance instead of commuter  
business regardless of the facts that most people are using multiple  
ride tickets.

If you want a real revelation, look at the SEPTA and New Jersey  
Transit and AMTRAK websites for fares.    The local fares are  
incredibly subsidized by taxpayers while Congress refuses to fund  
Amtrak.   I'll give you just one example>   Exton to Philadelphia on  
Amtrak is $6.00 one way.   On a SEPTA train over the very same rails  
between the same two stations the fare is  $5.50 peak, $4.25 off  
peak.   And SEPTA has to offer a senior citizen fare of half or less  
the full fare by law.      From Trenton to New York, Amtrak will sell  
you a one-way ticket for $36, $48, or $57 depending on the category  
of service.   NJT wants $11.50 or $5.25 for an old fart like me.    
Their train may take a few minutes longer but I can live with that  
when I look at the difference in price.

On Apr 11, 2007, at 10:53 PM, Bob Rathke wrote:

> A couple of years go I was in Harrisburg and asked a worker in the  
> station
> if they still run electric locomotives there.  He replied that  
> Amtrak sends
> out an electric locomotive about onc a year "to clean the dirt off the
> overhead wires."
>
> Bob 4/11/07
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:18 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: PRR Federal St. Station & What Dreams May Come
>
>
>> Right on.   And maybe someday they'll they'll find the bucks to
>> replace the contact wire that Amtrak announced was fixed when
>> electric operation resumed east of Harrisburg last October.
>>
>> On Apr 11, 2007, at 8:15 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I still have an issue of Railway Age with map of PA on front with
>>> line drawn
>>> between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.  The lead-in comment to
>>> feature comment
>>> was:  "are we serious about high speed rail?  You bet we are," said
>>> Governor
>>> Sheaffer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>> Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: PRR Federal St. Station & What Dreams May Come
>>>> Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:25:59 -0400
>>>>
>>>> We made the mistake of trying to copy what Europeans do without
>>>> understanding that Americans are not Europeans and did not grow up
>>>> with their mindset.   There were hundreds of little pieces of the
>>>> puzzle which we didn't understand.
>>>>
>>>> For example, Americans socialize in their homes.   We have people
>>>> over.   Germans would not think of that ... they would go out to a
>>>> restaurant to socialize or go to a game or go to a park or go
>>>> downtown with their friends on Saturday.
>>>>
>>>> We attempted to add the venue without understanding why the  
>>>> Europeans
>>>> have that venue and why it works for them.
>>>>
>>>> It would be like trying to install a high speed 200 mile an hour
>>>> train from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia without recognizing that we
>>>> have no way to get people from home to the station on one end and
>>>> from the station to destination on the other end.   The Europeans
>>>> have transit on both ends that works.   So do the Japanese.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I wish we could force our politicians to sit down in a
>>>> strange place and live there for a year before they try to import
>>>> ideas....
>>>>
>>>> fws
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 11, 2007, at 10:10 AM, Herb Brannon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In reading the article on Northside I see they want to return  
>>>>> it to
>>>>> something of its original self. A very good idea, and one which I
>>>>> hope is successful. It is indicated that if this plan is adopted,
>>>>> Federal Street would be opened again. Also, and one of the best
>>>>> parts of the plan, is the demolition of a part of Allegheny Center
>>>>> Mall.
>>>>>
>>>>>   As a personal comment, before I get to my main point, I believe
>>>>> both the rebuilding (meaning destruction) of Northside and East
>>>>> Liberty were part of the Robert Moses (the "sacred cow" architect
>>>>> who made parts of New York City into crime ridden shoebox-tenement
>>>>> districts through his right-wing brand of urban renewal) plan  
>>>>> which
>>>>> he drew up for Pittsburgh way back 'in the day.'
>>>>>
>>>>>   However, here is another chance for an operating Pittsburgh
>>>>> Railways trolley museum ! PATransit is (or was) extending the  
>>>>> light
>>>>> rail system over to Northside somewhere in the area of the
>>>>> stadiums. Now, if the Northside area is returned to something of
>>>>> its former self a nice connector from the end of the LRV line into
>>>>> the Northside/Allegheny City center als McKinney Street Transit
>>>>> Authority in Dallas would be excellent. Any comments?
>>>>>
>>>>>   For the list member who mentioned it in this thread, yes, the  
>>>>> PCC
>>>>> cars can be heard on the city streets of Pittsburgh again.
>>>>> Bob Rathke <bobrathke at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>   I checked some old PRR timetables, and it appears that the
>>>>> Federal St.
>>>>> Station building (later the Studebaker dealership) was off the  
>>>>> east-
>>>>> west
>>>>> schedules by 1950.
>>>>> However, the Pittsburgh-Cleveland trains still stopped at the
>>>>> Federal St.
>>>>> platforms until 1955, and the Pittsburgh area commuter trains
>>>>> stopped there
>>>>> as late as 1964. (In 1951, the PRR operated six round trip  
>>>>> trains a
>>>>> day
>>>>> between Pittsburgh and Cleveland.) Attached is a photo that I took
>>>>> on the
>>>>> Federal St. Station platform in June, 1957. The view is to the
>>>>> east, and
>>>>> the Federal Tire Co. store is visible on the east side of Federal
>>>>> St. along
>>>>> the north side of the tracks. At that time, acess to the
>>>>> platforms was
>>>>> through a staircase off Federal St. under the tracks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like Amtrak service to major cities today, the PRR had major
>>>>> "suburuban"
>>>>> stops on its mainlines to Pittsburgh:
>>>>> New York line trains stopped at East Liberty, St. Louis line  
>>>>> trains
>>>>> stopped
>>>>> at Carnegie, and Chicago line trains stopped at Sewickley.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob 4/10/07
>>>>>
>>>>> -----------------------------
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Bob Rathke"
>>>>> To:
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 5:55 PM
>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Allegheny
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Boggs & Buhl closed in 1958. In the 1940's and 50's they operated
>>>>>> a train
>>>>>> ride in the toy department at Christmas and Easter - an  
>>>>>> electric 1
>>>>>> ft.
>>>>>> guage
>>>>>> B&O streamliner. I've often wondered what happened to that train
>>>>>> after
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> store closed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Federal St. was still stop on the PRR up to the time the commuter
>>>>>> trains
>>>>>> were discontinued in the Fall of 1964. I'm not sure when the
>>>>>> Federal St.
>>>>>> Station building cesased being a station, but I remember the auto
>>>>>> dealer
>>>>>> that took over the building - Reed Studebaker, I believe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob 4/10/07
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----------------------------
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Fred Schneider"
>>>>>> To:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cc: "Dennis Lamont"
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 10:33 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Allegheny
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess we all have our memories of the Nor'side.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My Grandma Rebele lived off the 3400 block of Perrysville Avenue
>>>>>>> so I
>>>>>>> have my memories of the former City of Allegheny too. In  
>>>>>>> fact, as
>>>>>>> long as Grandma lived, the lower Nor'side in her mind was still
>>>>>>> Allegheny. She never adopted the word Pittsburgh. But then she
>>>>>>> was married to my Grandpa and moved from Pittsburgh to Allegheny
>>>>>>> before it was annexed to the larger city.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My Great Grandpa Rebele, whom I never knew, lived at 1439  
>>>>>>> Sandusky
>>>>>>> Street in a house that, surprisingly, still exists near  
>>>>>>> Allegheny
>>>>>>> General Hospital. I've had conversations with a waitress of  
>>>>>>> German
>>>>>>> ancestry, Jean Cerra, in Max's Allegheny Tavern who remembered
>>>>>>> tales
>>>>>>> about how her relatives were forced to lie about their  
>>>>>>> ancestry in
>>>>>>> order to enroll their son (her grandfather or father) into a
>>>>>>> parochial school on the Northside. No German's were desired in
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> neighborhood at that time because it was for English people. The
>>>>>>> Germans, like my Great Grandfather and hers, lived in the  
>>>>>>> triangle
>>>>>>> between the rivers after the War Between the States. Eventually
>>>>>>> much of that part of the north shore the river and Troy Hill
>>>>>>> became
>>>>>>> German but not without protest.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My memories of the 1950s when I was running around the
>>>>>>> Northside was
>>>>>>> a of quasi-vibrant but declining area with a market at Ohio and
>>>>>>> Federal Streets. Pittsburgh Railways still maintained an  
>>>>>>> house on
>>>>>>> Sandusky Streets north of East Ohio Street with the line /
>>>>>>> inclines
>>>>>>> department on the first floor (Charles Shauck was the
>>>>>>> superindent in
>>>>>>> my era) and the track engineering department was on the second
>>>>>>> floor. Shauck dragged me around to some wonderful places to  
>>>>>>> eat in
>>>>>>> the market after, he claimed, I'd dumped all my money in company
>>>>>>> fare
>>>>>>> boxes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Allegheny had its own department store. Boggs and Buhl survived
>>>>>>> until 1957 I think. Ed Lybarger could fill you in on the  
>>>>>>> details:
>>>>>>> one of the original founders of the store was one of the
>>>>>>> founders of
>>>>>>> the Pittsburgh, Harmony, Butler and New Castle Railway as  
>>>>>>> well as
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> of the land development schemes up north near Warrendale. I
>>>>>>> remember the story that my uncle took his two daughters in to
>>>>>>> outfit
>>>>>>> them for school during the grand going out of business sale and
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> store forgot to send the bill.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Garden Theater degenerated in later years to an X-rated
>>>>>>> venue on
>>>>>>> North Avenue. That part of Allegheny became rather nondescript.
>>>>>>> My grandmother and mother used to worry about me if I was  
>>>>>>> waiting
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> an 8 car down at Federal Street and North Avenue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can also recall when the Pennsylvania Railroad was tearing  
>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> grand castle of a station on Federal Street ... also known as  
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Fort Wayne Station. At one time the PRR station on the North  
>>>>>>> Side
>>>>>>> was a base for some trains starting there and heading west.  
>>>>>>> It was
>>>>>>> also a starting point for some trains that went east via the
>>>>>>> Allegheny and Connemaugh River lines to Johnstown. I'm not sure
>>>>>>> when the waiting room closed and it just became a non-agency  
>>>>>>> stop
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> commuter trains ... probably even before World War II. I  
>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>> it as a Studebaker dealer. Then in 1954 I took some 35mm  
>>>>>>> negatives
>>>>>>> of it being dismantled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I remember the Northside as a city ... blocks this way and
>>>>>>> blocks
>>>>>>> that way filled with buildings. The last time I drove through
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> a few months ago I was suddenly struck by a totally different
>>>>>>> impression. It was one of how many blocks of buildings had been
>>>>>>> bulldozed away in order to build the East Street Expressway, the
>>>>>>> Crosstown Expressway and the I-279 Expressway. Perhaps 20 square
>>>>>>> blocks of buildings vanished. And as the link Boris posted  
>>>>>>> pointed
>>>>>>> out, the heart and soul is gone thanks to the loop around the
>>>>>>> middle
>>>>>>> of it. Just restoring transit to the middle of Federal Street  
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> East Ohio Street won't change anything ... the market is gone.
>>>>>>> Sears Roebuck is gone. The Carnegie Library is empty. The
>>>>>>> shoppers are out at the mall off McKnight Road. A small  
>>>>>>> number who
>>>>>>> are captive may still be downtown because they have no
>>>>>>> automobile to
>>>>>>> take them to the mall.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, if you drive out East Ohio Street, between East Commons (we
>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> to call it Sandusky Street) and East Street) there are still a
>>>>>>> couple
>>>>>>> of blocks of stores reminiscent of old Pittsburgh including ...
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> this guys ... a camera store and an Isalys. I've added a link  
>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>> google map showing that area today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Federal+Street+at+North
>>>>>>> +Ave.,
>>>>>>> +Pittsburgh,
>>>>>>> +PA&layer=&sll=32.442523,-87.032472&sspn=0.098367,0.148659&ie=UT 
>>>>>>> F8
>>>>>>> &z
>>>>>>> =16&
>>>>>>> ll=40.452123,-
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 80.006669&spn=0.011087,0.018582&om=1On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Boris
>>>>>>>> Cefer
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.newcolonist.com/finding_allegheny.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's an exhibit in the Heinz Architecture Hall at the  
>>>>>>>> Carnegie
>>>>>>>> Museum
>>>>>>>> of Art which suggests other ways Allegheny might be  
>>>>>>>> revitalized.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
>>>>> -- Type: image/jpeg
>>>>> -- Size: 49k (50646 bytes)
>>>>> -- URL : http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/
>>>>> PRR9812FedSt0657.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Herb Brannon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Download Messenger. Join the i’m Initiative. Help make a difference
>>> today.
>>> http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

More information about the Pittsburgh-railways mailing list