[PRCo] Europa (Foreign Languages) ESL

[Fred Schneider]

I would tend to agree, Ken, if only because Germany does not at the  
present time own any territory in which another language has been  
spoken for over one hundred years.   We do.   We took Puerto Rico  
away from the Spanish and the Puerto Ricans move back and forth  
between the lower 48 and their island at will.   And they are part of  
us.   Do not forget that we also have some islands far out in the  
Pacific Ocean too ... American Samoa.

We have often forgotten, in our haste to criticize the next  
generation of immigrants, that our own ancestors struggled mightily  
with the new language and were probably never as fluent as we would  
like to believe.   It was probably the children who were truly  
bilingual and the third generation who were forgot that Grandma  
didn't really know English.  And we often only know how little that  
first generation didn't know when we go back to census information  
and see who the neighbors where ... Oh yes, they lived together, the  
neighborhood was Polish or Czech or Italian because they could speak  
to each other.   And once the next generation came along, then they  
spread out over the landscape.

Germany has had other immigration issues with which you may not be  
familiar.   West Germany, to support its Wirtschaftswunder or  
economic miracle of the 1950s and 1960s, allowed a tremendous number  
of Gastarbeiter or guest workers into the country.   After economic  
conditions began to sour, then the born Germans though it was time  
for the Italians and Turks to go home.   Because Italy's economic  
conditions had also improved, that was not an issue.   But the Turks  
often thought differently, particularly their children who were born  
and grew up in west Germany.    You would hear the same stories there  
that you heard here.   The Turks were the people willing to do the  
menial work that no one else wanted to do.   They were the ones  
selling Russian army hats to the tourists.   But still the German's  
didn't want them.   It was rather similar to us not wanting Mexican  
gardeners even though we don't want to pick up leaves and cut grass.

East Germany had similar problems, in their case the immigrants were  
often from North Vietnam.

France probably has more Muslims per capita that most western  
European nations.  Don't walk around a muslim market in Paris with a  
camera if you don't want to be told about it.   At the McDonalds  
restaurant in the Muslim Quarter in St. Denis is the only one I've  
ever been in that had a bouncer.

Languages, like Rich Allman pointed out, are always a problem.    
Adolf Hitler attempted to unify all of the German speaking people  
into one Germany, or rather sadly one Germany minus the ethnic groups  
he didn't want in it.   The European Economic Community at least  
allows people within the EEC to move anywhere they want for a job.    
It's like you and I crossing a state line for a job.   No big deal.    
But the chap from Lisbon who wants a hotel job in Bern had still  
better be able to speak German, English and French or he will not be  
hired.

Yet to go back to my friend Frits van Dam saying I could go 3,000  
miles on my language and he could go 100 on his.  It is a valid  
point.   There are roughly 20 dialects of German.  A German from  
Berlin Hanover will have difficulty understanding a German from the  
Saar ... a friend of mine told me their two sets of inlaws had a  
terrible time communicating.   I used to do pretty well in the north  
of Germany but I remember being in a party in Munich and wondering,  
"What the hell are these people saying?"   Until Dick Lloyd died, he  
would never let me forget that.   And I remember listening to a  
northern German ordering a meal in perfect Hoch Deutsch or high  
German in a small town in Switzerland and the waitress was totally  
bewildered ... Swiss German is in a class by itself.   There are 30  
some different dialects of French.   I am not sure how different  
Dutch Flemish is from Belgian Flemish.   I haven't a clue how many  
versions of Italian there are ... I know that Sicilian is  
different.    We have essentially one English language -- Britain  
doesn't and if you don't believe me, try understanding a Glaswegian  
or a Bristolian talking.

What we as Americans fail to realize is that you can travel all over  
Europe and you had better know the local language in the small towns,  
or at least be adept at drawing pictures or hand signals or clucking  
to let them know you want chicken.   But in Prague or Vienna or  
Munich or Berlin or Paris or Rome ... the tourist cities ... you can  
be the ugly American or evil British bore, speak only English, and  
live comfortably forever and get away with it because they will be  
your servants.   Frankly, I like the small towns and it is nice to be  
able to recognize when the waiter asks me in German if I liked the  
meal and to be able to answer him in German.   Amtrak or other  
American tourist agents would be stunned to realize the extent to  
which Europeans in the travel game are able to communicate in other  
languages.   For example, in Central Station, the Hague, Netherlands,  
all of the clerks in the general information office speak at least  
three or four languages ... in common with each other ... I'm pretty  
certain they all speak English, German, Dutch and French or they  
simply would not be hired.   They each have one other specialty  
tongue.   You will find the same true of major chain hotel front desk  
and restaurant staff, rental car clerks, airline staff, air terminal  
store sales staff, and, in areas where tourists are plentiful, almost  
anyone the tourist will encounter.

Yet, Ken, before we criticize anyone for not learning English, please  
understand that it is one of the most complicated languages to learn  
on the planet.   I have a friend ... the gent with whom I went to  
Austria ... who voluntarily teaches English as a second language to  
Mexicans down in North Carolina.   He can give you hundreds of first  
hand examples that bewilder his students.   He also points out that  
the demand for ESL slots far exceeds the spaces.   So if you wish to  
criticize someone for not know the language ... then offer to teach  
it in your spare time.





On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:02 PM, Ken & Tracie wrote:

> But let me add, that while I agree that knowing more than one  
> language is
> beneficial, I still expect people who move to the U.S. as permanent
> residents to learn English.
>
> It would be wrong of me to move myself and my family to Berlin and  
> expect
> the locals to learn English.
>
> K.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken & Tracie" <ktjosephson at embarqmail.com>
> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 8:57 AM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: PRCo] Re: Europa (Foreign Languages)
>
>
>> Nothing new here, Fred,
>>
>> The Milwaukee Public School system started introducing sixth grade
>> students
>> to Spanish during 1971-'72. They did this via a television program  
>> shown
>> in
>> class over the local PBS station. Then the kids practiced the  
>> lesson with
>> their teachers.
>>
>> The idea behind it was a belief that Spanish was considered the  
>> second
>> most
>> influential language in the world and that trade would increase  
>> between
>> South and North America.
>>
>> I cannot recall anybody complaining about it.
>>
>> This all occurred while Milwaukee winding down from all German
>> neighborhoods
>> with German signs in the windows of German stores on Vliet, State and
>> upper
>> North Third Streets.  There were several German newspapers and at  
>> least
>> one
>> German radio program ("Fritz the Plumber").
>>
>> Mass was celebrated in Polish as well as Italian and English.  
>> Latin was a
>> common thread at church.
>>
>> Most Milwaukeeans of German descent were Lutheran. You found more  
>> German
>> Catholics in Chicago, Cleveland and Detroit than in Southeastern
>> Wisconsin.
>>
>> The upscale subdivision of Washington Heights (or Washington  
>> Highland, I
>> forget the name at the moment), was going to be named "Kaiser  
>> Heights" by
>> the German planner. WW I put an end to that idea. But the crafty  
>> guy had
>> the
>> last word. The streets were laid out in such a way which forms the  
>> shape
>> of
>> a German helmet
>>
>> This was realized via aerial photography, though studying the  
>> layout would
>> have made it obvious. Look at an aerial photo of Wauwatosa (an older
>> "streetcar suburb") and you can easily pick it out.
>>
>> How can I tie this into traction? Lots of Polish immigrants used  
>> to say,
>> "Where the streetcar bends the corner around" rather than saying,   
>> "Where
>> the streetcar turns the corner."
>>
>> Oh, and Roberta Hill loved taking photos of Pittsburgh streetcars  
>> using
>> churches as backdrops. ;-)
>>
>> K.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 8:17 AM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: PRCo] Re: Europa (Foreign Languages)
>>
>>
>>> Correct.   But rather than work with our neighbors, we have  
>>> people in
>>> this country who fight teaching Spanish.  The Puerto Ricans think
>>> that learning English compromises their culture.   And the Quebecois
>>> delberately attempt to prevent English instruction until after  
>>> age 10
>>> when it is impractical to learn a language.   Sad.   N'est pas?
>>>
>>> On Nov 10, 2007, at 11:07 AM, Richard Allman wrote:
>>>
>>>> the political scientists will tell you that language differences
>>>> are the
>>>> most irreconcillable-maybe even more than religion. think about it-
>>>> if you
>>>> can't talk to your neighbor, building community becomes a challenge
>>>> and
>>>> suspicion of "otherness" rises to the top of the pond. Just look @
>>>> Belgium-threatened w/ break-up despite relative prosperity, the
>>>> always-
>>>> strong separatist movement in Quebec, w/ some thoroughly vile
>>>> demagoguery,
>>>> what happened in old USSR, the Balkans, Kuridsh regions of Iran,  
>>>> Iraq,
>>>> Turkey-some religious and ehtnic baggage for sure, but where
>>>> dialogue is
>>>> impossible, all else breaks down.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 6:28 PM
>>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: PRCo] Re: Europa (Foreign Languages)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Sorry about that.   I was quoting a rather upset member of the
>>>>> Canadian diplomatic service who I met at the Baltimore Streetcar
>>>>> Museum.   When I asked him about politics, we went ballistic.
>>>>>
>>>>> But within your commentary I feel a certain dissatisfaction too.
>>>>> Sad isn't it that politicians in any country feel that they can  
>>>>> only
>>>>> get support from their constituents if they are running someone  
>>>>> else
>>>>> down.   Sort of like the newspapers which can only make money  
>>>>> if they
>>>>> print bad news.   And the churches who are always right ... my  
>>>>> church
>>>>> that is, your church is always wrong, or so it seems.   <BG>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 6:12 PM, Joshua Dunfield wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred Schneider wrote:
>>>>>>> And then we have 12 million people in Quebec and some others  
>>>>>>> in New
>>>>>>> Brunswick and Nova Scotia who would like to break away from  
>>>>>>> Canada.
>>>>>>> And if they do, then there is another group of Canadians in the
>>>>>>> prairie provinces who think more like the USA to the south.
>>>>>>> Crazy,
>>>>>>> isn't it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quebec doesn't have 12 million people, much less 12 million
>>>>>> separatists; they got two chances to pass a referendum and
>>>>>> failed both times.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Language is certainly a political issue here (I moved to Montreal
>>>>>> a few weeks ago).  One of the former Parti Quebecois governments
>>>>>> even banned commercial signs in English.  Eventually it was  
>>>>>> struck
>>>>>> down by the courts, but they allowed a "reasonable compromise":
>>>>>> now French just has to be at least twice as big on signs.  And
>>>>>> despite
>>>>>> having caused an exodus of English Canadians from Montreal in the
>>>>>> '80s,
>>>>>> so that English is now definitely a minority language in the  
>>>>>> city,
>>>>>> the separatist politicians still rant and rave about how if they
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> do this, that and the other to support French (which really means
>>>>>> suppressing English), French will vanish instantly.  The latest
>>>>>> threat
>>>>>> that will magically destroy French in Quebec is immigrants,  
>>>>>> who are
>>>>>> supposedly all learning English and not French.  There's no data
>>>>>> to back this up, but who needs facts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -j.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>