[PRCo] Re: Liberty 12th Wye_--_Why?~?~?~!~!~!

Wed Sep 5 15:49:54 EDT 2007

Thanks, Herb.

That kind of jars an exceptionally vague recollection from riding the 77/54 
to Buhl Planetarium a few years back.  Ok, maybe more then a few.

>From 16th St., Liberty Ave. track was next to the PRR wall, then jogged over 
- but only one lane.  And there were more lanes to the left.  That was for 
the for inbound auto traffic.  It was two-way.  But Penn was one-way 
inbound, and there was a produce area which constricted the number of lanes 
available.  Somewhere around 22nd and Penn?????  It's been about 40 years.

The 1923 map at historic Pittsburgh site shows double track on both Liberty 
and Penn.  But it does not show track on 16th St. bridge.  An oversight??  
Or does bridge date to this period???

John

>From: Herb Brannon <hrbran at sbcglobal.net>
>Reply-To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>Subject: [PRCo] Re: Liberty 12th Wye_--_Why?~?~?~!~!~!
>Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:51:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I was going to answer Jim back, then decided to "let sleeping dogs lay" and 
>not do it. However, the entire time I lived in Pittsburgh (1971 to 1986) 
>Liberty was always a two-way street. Penn, though, was one-way, inbound.
>Bob Dietrich <bdietrich at comcast.net> wrote:  I haven't been following this 
>thread closely (sorry but I'm a little
>overwhelmed by the volume this past weekend) so I apologize. Has it been
>established here that Liberty Avenue was a one-way street? If so when did
>it revert back to two way. It is a two way street now and has been as long
>as I remember. Penn Ave one-way inbound.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>[mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of Jim
>Holland
>Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 6:26 AM
>To: - 1714 PRCo__WP__JTC -
>Subject: [PRCo] Re: Liberty 12th Wye_--_Why?~?~?~!~!~!
>
> > Herb wrote:
>.
> > Gee, something new.
>.
>Yes -- underscores what I said the other day -- there is More Than
>Enough to Learn about PRCo that we don't need Purposely OT posts - any
>topic can stray but I prefer to remain close to topic. We learned
>that there was an 86X.
>.
> > Yes, there was a route 86-East Liberty Express which
> > ran on Liberty. This is probably why the switch was there
> > .............so those cars could get over to Penn for
> > their 'city loop.' The 86 ran well before 1940.
>.
>.
>NO~!~!~! The Wye under discussion is built into the one and only
>outbound track. Agreed that the 86 was pre-1940, but in those days
>Liberty was a 2-way Street with Two TrolleyCar Tracks - one inbound and
>one outbound -- Same For Penn. Here is a photo which emphasizes
>this dated 1936.07.31, a little over 71-years ago:::
>.
>http://tinyurl.com/2w2oms
>.
>I doubt that we determined the precise date that Liberty // Penn went to
>one-way but 1936 to 1940 seems likely. While it is not uncommon for
>TrolleyCars to run against traffic, it is usually in more out of the way
>places -- Trafford comes to mind -- or was forced on the railway
>like through Charleroi or some of those river towns in the 1950s. It
>would be Quite Reasonable to assume that downtown Pittsburgh would
>disallow single track operation by trolleys in two directions on a one
>way street -- except for emergencies.
>.
>Thus the 86X could not use this switch under discussion. The 86X
>*-Apparently-* came into downtown Pgh on Double Track On Liberty - how
>it looped downtown is unknown at this time. (((As an aside -- in
>one of the photos the other day the photographer was standing on Penn
>near Stanwix looking West about 1945-1950 and the Second Track On Penn
>was still visible then. Before 1940, Penn had double track all the
>way to the Point Bridge from 32nd, from E.Liberty actually~!~!~! As
>mentioned, Liberty was double track from Fancourt in downtown all the
>way to Main. Wood and Smithfield were also double track and although
>unused, some of that remained well into the 1940s.)
>.
>Post 1940 (after 86X operations *-probably-* ceased) when both
>Liberty and Penn are One Way and when track is reconfigured results in
>the single track simple wye at 12th which was under discussion. We
>have discussed this before to an extent -- it has been mentioned that
>the extra trackage remaining on Liberty was *-probably-* for emergency
>detours, like flooding. Matt brought it altogether for me -- Penn
>could be flooded, TrolleyCars diverted to Liberty for both IB and OB
>which would take tremendous coordination but in those days it was second
>nature. Inbound cars would be running against traffic until 12th
>where they would turn right to Penn and resume normal route or another
>detour if necessary. I am including a copy Liberty // Penn only from
>the ERA map of 1949 as the detail is a little more plain. Note that
>IB cars from Penn and Butler could turn at 22nd, then R onto Liberty
>where they would need clearance to enter the single track to 12th where
>they return to Penn. If conditions warrant, Cars from Penn and
>Butler could be *wyed* by backing them up 32nd to Liberty then IB
>Liberty through two sets of single track to 12th.
>.
>.
>--
>*Jim Holland*
>Studying *Pittsburgh Railways Company*
>
>....................From 1930 -- 1950
>
>*Pennsylvania Trolley Museum (PTM)*
>
>http://www.pa-trolley.org/
>
>*N.M.R.A.*
>
>http://www.nmra.org/
>
>
>
>-- Attached file removed by Ecartis and put at URL below --
>-- Type: image/jpeg
>-- Size: 149k (152917 bytes)
>-- URL :
>http://lists.dementia.org/files/pittsburgh-railways/Map%20Liberty%2011th%20t
>o%2032nd.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Herb Brannon
>
>

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