[PRCo] Re: New York Times Streetcar Article

[Schneider Fred]

YOU SUMMED IT UP JOHN.

NOW HOW DOES SOCIETY SOLVE THE PROBLEM?

Transit is just one corner of the problem.   Educating people for the  
future is an even bigger issue.   Getting people to live with each  
other is also a big issue and one that we have been attempting to  
address for the last half century and then some.  But it all has to  
come together.  I've got tons of questions but seldom the answers.  I  
think I have the same questions you do.


On Aug 20, 2008, at 4:04 PM, John Swindler wrote:

>
>
> We both moved away.  So did much of Pittsburgh (to make a feeble  
> attempt to get back to list topic)  In Harrisburg there are  
> extremely stark contrasts between the the 322, 8 and 13 bus routes,  
> both riders and territory served. Like three different worlds.   
> Maybe a lot of Harrisburg was "grizzly" in the 1970s, but I notice  
> it more, now.  Yes, was thinking of the Polyclinic/Italian Lake  
> area as one that has remained fairly stable.  But don't wander too  
> many blocks to the east.
>
> As for retraining, not even so much the older workers, but the  
> frustrating thing is the drop out rate at many urban high schools.   
> Kids don't get it - or can't be bothered.  Or whatever.  To  
> paraphase others, you only go around once, and these kids are  
> throwing their lives away.  I know that we can both relate to that,  
> and suspect most others on this list can too.  And yes, that does  
> have a negative impact on transit.
>
> The other extreme would be the experience of a foreign exchange  
> student that would be an embarrassment to 99% of us, myself  
> included.  She made the US secondary education system look so  
> easy.  And that is what is so sad about parts of the younger  
> generation.  I guess my generation too.
>
> My advice to Jimmy was to get the high school degree and go onto  
> more education, if he wanted to be able to do the things he liked.   
> (do you want to flip hamburgers or be able to go scuba diving???)   
> Perhaps it helped to point out the lifestyle of others who chose  
> not to go forward.  Because they seemed to be an interest, I  
> suggested medical or computers.  But it didn't matter much, as long  
> as it was something, preferably that he liked.  He opted for  
> medical.  At least if/when I have bypass surgery, I hope he will  
> remember to wake me up afterwards.  (:>)
>
> I suspect we are both skirting different sides of the same issue -  
> future of society and its impact on transit.  Maybe more the former  
> then the latter.  Maybe we can beg forgiveness from Derrick by  
> suggesting that the transit of the street railway era is a  
> completely different world from today.  And transit today must  
> serve a very different market that is in the process of yet  
> changing again.
>
> John
>
>
>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: New York Times  
>> Streetcar Article> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:09:34 -0400> To:  
>> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > Pardon the expansion on the  
>> subject....> > No, John, but Fred drives through much of  
>> Harrisburg. You do not > have to ride the 8 and 13 buses to know  
>> what Derry St. and Paxton St. > and those neighborhoods look like.  
>> I got through them > frequently. And no, I have not walked up to  
>> the Broad Street > Market this month. But I drove up to the  
>> Polyclinic Hospital last > month to visit a friend. Does that  
>> count?> > Unfortunately, no one has good answers to solve urban  
>> problems. We > simply continue to try to move away from them. Part  
>> of it is jobs.> > It all goes back to that old argument about  
>> training old workers for > new jobs. You cannot train people to  
>> ditches with a pick and spade > today and expect them to find  
>> work. They need to adapt to > contemporary jobs or roll over and  
>> play dead. I just punched > "demand!
>   occupations" into Google. Twenty or thirty years ago that > used  
> to pull up a long list of clerical and factory jobs that were >  
> hard to fill. Today the top 50 demand occupations nationwide appear  
> > to be largely college based. Only three of them required mostly >  
> high school diplomas or less ... restaurant managers, electricians,  
> > plumbers. I would have trouble believing that a good electrician  
> or > plumber has only received a high school diploma and not a lot  
> of > corporate sponsored training too. The other 47 occupations  
> largely > required junior college or four-year degrees or even  
> higher. No > offense meant, but the era of sleeping on the night  
> shift at > Homestead Works of U. S. Steel is over. Long Gone.> >  
> Data that is as good as any is probably in the U. S. Occupational >  
> Outlook Handbook. The flaw with such information is that it can >  
> only be based on what has happened. We always expect to be told >  
> what will happen as if someone in the gov'm't had a big crystal!
>> ball. Frankly, if you ask a business corporation what their plans >
>  are for the future, the manager either doesn't know or he sure as  
> > hell isn't going to let the cat out of the bag and tell you so  
> his > competitors might find out. So all you can do is look at what  
> has > happened and try to make adjustments based on what you know.  
> I got > into some large arguments over state occupational  
> projections when > they wanted to greatly increase staff in grocery  
> stores in one round > of projections I had been asked to edit. I  
> explained that you can't > do what happened in the past because the  
> past represented a > conversion from full time help to a lot of  
> part-time low-wage > workers. There are no more full-time people to  
> replace. So the > number of grocery clerks isn't going to continue  
> to rise. So the > next question was, "We've decided we will have  
> this many workers, so > if you don't want them as grocery clerks,  
> then where do you want > them?" How about more unemployed? We can't  
> do that. Isn't > politically proper. But it turned out that is wh!
>  at did happen.> > So if you look at the data in the URL below you  
> will see that photo > processors will drop drastically in the  
> coming years. Yeah. > Right. Where are they going to drop from? For  
> example, there is > only one laboratory left in the entire U. S. A.  
> and Canada that > processes Kodachrome and that is Dwayne's in  
> Parsons, Kansas. I > think they also have the European market now.  
> But because we lost > thousands of photo lab technicians due to the  
> digital revolution over > the last survey period, it has to happen  
> again. Then the data will > be revised after Washington finds out  
> there were none left to drop. > So look at the data with a grain of  
> salt. At least it is good data > about what just happened in the  
> recent past.> > http://www.bls.gov/oco/oco2003.htm> > I guess I'm  
> still a strong believer in putting corporate people > instead of  
> politicians on school boards; and forcing school people to > listen  
> to them instead of to parents and kids about what is relevant!
>> in our lives. I'm still a strong believer in history, geography, >
> English, more than ever in foreign languages, computer skills, math  
> > and sciences. There are only so many jobs out there for people  
> who > can only flip hamburgers, hold flags at construction sites,  
> or stock > store shelves and they do not pay well.> > > > > On Aug  
> 20, 2008, at 11:28 AM, John Swindler wrote:> > >> > Hi Rich> >> >  
> Fred doesn't ride the rt. 8 nor rt. 13 buses on occasion to see > >  
> what is happening to Harrisburg outside the downtown area. Nor > >  
> does he have occasion to walk up to the Broad st. Market to see how  
> > > that residential area has been cleared. If nothing else, at  
> least > > many of the empty houses have been leveled.> >> > The  
> downtown area is getting some more construction on Market St > >  
> and up by the Keystone Building. But this sort of thing has been >  
> > going on every so often since the 1970s, and probably earlier. >  
> > State government has provided white collar jobs - its the blue >  
> > collar jobs that have evaporated, as Fred notes. The sidew!
>  alks > > still get rolled up at 5:15 in Harrisburg. It seems like  
> a > > deserted town when I catch the later 5:35 bus.> >> >  
> Ascending? It varys, just like so many other US towns.> >> > John>  
> >> >> >> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: New  
> York Times > >> Streetcar Article> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:37:38  
> -0400> To: > >> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > Rich,> > I need  
> to take you to > >> Passage of India restaurant and introduce you >  
> to Lena and Vishnu > >> Shenoy, the owners.> > http:// 
> www.passagetoindiapa.com/> > There > >> is also several great  
> Italian places downtown.> > Harrisburg was > >> probably at its  
> worst in the 1970s and 1980s. It's > star is > >> ascending. The  
> worst blow, just like Pittsburgh, was when > > >> Bethlehem Steel  
> faltered in Steelton in the 1980s. There is a > > >> replacement  
> steel company but it does not employ nearly the number > >> of >  
> people that Bethlehem had.> > Please also notice that when I > >>  
> am throwing out emp!
>  loyment data, I'm > tossing around metropolitan > >> statistical area
> data and not cities. > By definition an MSA is > >> either a city  
> of 50,000 people or more or a > city with a > >> prescribed  
> population density (that last clause was > inserted in > >> 1990 or  
> 2000 when we w!> > ould have lost places like > Harrisburg that  
> were shrinking under > > 50,000 and we reduced the core > city to a  
> 10,000 to 50,000 range). > > The county surrounding the core > city  
> is automatically included. > > Lancaster County, Pennsylvania is >  
> automatically included because > > Lancaster City is over 50,000. >  
> Philadelphia County is > > automatically included with Philadelphia  
> City, > in that case > > because they are co-terminus. Beyond that,  
> a requisite > number of > > people from surrounding counties must  
> commute into the core > > > county for work to add them to the MSA.  
> We have since tweaked the > > > commuting patterns from 15% to 25%  
> in recent years. We look first > > > for the largest county with  
> 25% and add it. Then we look for the > > > next county tha!
>  t has 25% or more of its population commuting to > > work > in the  
> first two counties. Then we hunt for a county that > > has 25% > or  
> more of its people working in the first three > > counties, and so  
> on > until we run out of counties that qualify.> > > > Some states  
> pub!> > lish county and city data. Pennsylvania does. But > those  
> data or not> > readily available on line so I don't look for it to  
> > make > > comparisons with other capitals. So I can only look at  
> Albany > or > > Cheyenne or Philadelphia or Richmond as MSAs and  
> not as cities. > > > By the same token, I can not easily look at  
> Williamsburg, Virginia > > as > a city. I have to look at it as  
> part of Norfolk - Newport News > > - > Hampton.> > Is that fair?  
> That depends on who you talk to. I > > remember one > character  
> from the Chamber of Commerce in Port > > Jervis PA who argued >  
> with me that he could not understand why his > > city was included  
> in the > Middletown NY MSA / New York City CMSA. > > The lunacy or!
>   logic of it > simply escaped his brain. But the fool > > attended  
> the
>  conferences in > Washington when OMB reclassified Pike > > County  
> PA into that area. He > understood. He just believed his > > county  
> was more important by > itself. He simply wasn't willing to > >  
> admit that 65% of the workers > in his area actually crossed the >  
> > Delaware River and went into New > Jersey and New York states to  
> work!> > and there was no way you were > going to convince him. If  
> you > > want a lot of heavy reading, the link > below goes to the  
> Federal > > Register. You can read all about it. But > I don't  
> expect anyone to > > do it.> > http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/ 
> fedreg/ > > metroareas122700.pdf> > But at least now you know why  
> Allegheny, > > Butler, Washington, Beaver, > Fayette and  
> Westmoreland counties are > > all part of the Pittsburgh MSA > or  
> labor market.> > On Aug 20, > > 2008, at 10:03 AM, Derrick J  
> Brashear wrote:> > > On Tue, 19 Aug > > 2008, Richard Allman  
> wrote:> >> >> what about our great state > > capital city? Unless  
> I'm missing > >> somet!
>  hing, it's> >> still a > > dump. A few years ago the Inquirer ran  
> an article entitled > >> > > something> >> like "Harrisburg:Is this  
> any place to have a state > > capital?" and > >> subtitled> >> "not  
> even a nice place to > > visit" (as oppposed to places that are >  
> >> nowhere to> >> > > > Harrisburg seems not bad to me; It  
> certainly has more ethnic food, > > for> > instance, than other  
> larger cit!> > ies I've been to. There are > > recreational> >  
> opportunities. The > > big> > thing for me would have been that  
> because of > > its> > size, a > > dearth of the sort of touring  
> musical acts coming that I'd > > like > > to> > see. But that's an  
> issue in Pittsburgh too.> >> > In some > > respects "it depends  
> where in the city you are"> >> >> >> >  
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