[PRCo] Re: P-r-w, housing, cities, etc.

[Schneider Fred]

Farm families needed large numbers.  None of my ancestral families  
were large ... four or five was huge and most were two or three.

But the point I was trying to make was not family size or migration  
but how the city grew and how much empty space there was in  
Pittsburgh.   The river bottoms filled up with the mills and  
railroads.   The large estates were in Shadyside and the east end.    
But there was nothing beyond Wilkinsburg out in the hills to speak  
off before the 1930s except for some coal mines and some scattered  
farms and houses along the Verona trolley line.   And Mount  
Washington was a huge barrier that caused the areas of the city to be  
pretty empty until after the trolley tunnel in 1904 and still they  
really didn't fill in until the Liberty Tubes allow motor cars easy  
access in the 1920s.

West View Park and Kennywood Park were put where they were because it  
was cheap empty land.

Why was Keating Car House built a mile beyond the city limits in  
1921?   It was an empty field.   Trolley companies don't spend a  
fortune condemning real estate and tearing old buildings down to get  
space.   So figure that when Glenwood Car House was built about 1890,  
that was empty space.   When Homewood Shops was built ... yes, that  
there was three or four blocks that the Railways could get for next  
to nothing.

When these places become more valuable for something else, you sell  
the land, take the cash and move out.

West View Park closed because the land was more valuable for housing.

Willow Grove Park in Philadelphia closed because the land was far  
more valuable for a suburban shopping center.

On Dec 10, 2008, at 9:54 PM, John Swindler wrote:

>
>
> Might be surprised, just like I was.  Generally the parents arrived  
> from eastern Pa or Virginia (in my case) during 1770s (at least for  
> Fayette Co., Luzerne Twp. settlement) and their kids were already  
> heading west to Dayton, eastern Indiana, and Bowling Green area by  
> 1800-1810.  Another branch was south of Louisville by 1790s and  
> south of Indianapolis by 1810.  By 1840s, the grandkids had moved  
> onto Minnesota, Livingston, Ill., Des Moines, Iowa etc.  The great- 
> grand kids had reached the rockies, San Antonio, Tex. by circa 1872  
> in their 20s, and onto Nevada/California later in life.
>
> There were a lot of large farm families with 10-15 in the  
> household, or so it seemed from US census.
>
>
>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: P-r-w, housing,  
>> cities, etc.> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:10:05 -0500> To:  
>> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > OK. Sparsely settled would  
>> have been a much better term.> > On Dec 10, 2008, at 8:13 PM, John  
>> Swindler wrote:> > >> >> > What is the basis for Pittsburgh being  
>> Indian country in 1800??? > > 1770, maybe, but Indians gone by  
>> 1800s. Need to check historical > > records.> >> > John> >> From:  
>> fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] P-r-w, housing, > >>  
>> cities, etc.> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:06:38 -0500> To: > >>  
>> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > Uh huh. That's because the >  
>> >> city was unsettled then.> > In 1700 the frontier was  
>> Philadelphia, > >> Williamsburg, Boston, > Charleston, Baltimore.>  
>> > In 1750 the > >> frontier was Lancaster or Charlottesville.> >  
>> In 1800 Pittsburgh > >> was indian territory.> > In the 1880s  
>> people were beginning to > >> move up into what is now Perry >  
>> Hilltop. My grandmothers > >> neighb!
>  orhood by Riverview Park off of > Perrysville Avenue was a > >>  
> Watson land development from the teens of > 1920s.> > West View >  
> >> Park was built in 1906. The land around it was developed > in  
> that > >> period. Nothing was there.> > The older homes in  
> Brookline and > >> Mount Lebanon and Dormont are > largely teens,  
> twenties, a few > >> thirties, forties.> > Penn Hills? After World  
> War II Levittown in > >> Bucks County was the > fastest growing  
> part of Pennsylvania and > >> Penn Hills (Penn Township, > Alleghen! 
> > > y County) was second. My parents bought two adjoining 1/4 >  
> acre > > lots in Crescent Hills in 1937 and built a house on one of  
> > them. > > Meadow Gold Dairy gave customers an aerial photograph  
> of the > > > neighborhood ... about one lot in six or seven was  
> filled in by > > > 1940. The rest didn't fill in until the 1960s.  
> It's solid > today. > > But in the 1940s only the area around Black  
> Ridge above > > > Wilkinsburg was really filled in.> > Those  
> perfectly sy!
>  mmetrical > > square brick houses that you see all over >  
> Allegheny Co
> unty ... > > walk in the front door and the living room is > either  
> to the right > > or left, the dining room is on the other side >  
> with the kitchen > > behind it. The stair case goes up from the  
> front > door. with three > > bedrooms and bath upstairs with the  
> bath over the > kitchen. The > > basement had a single car garage  
> under the > kitchen. They are > > purely late 1940s. Memorize the  
> design and you > can see what > > filled in after the war. Go up  
> the hill from Linden > Grove on the > > interurban and!> > you will  
> find that area filled with > them. That's where John > > Swindle> >  
> r's parents moved after leaving > Edgewood. A lot of homes in Penn  
> > > Hills are like that ... the post > war ones.> > If you local >  
> > hysterical society has a person qualified to teach the > basics  
> of > > architectural history of housing, I would suggest that it >  
> is > > something any railfan interested in something more than just  
> the > > > trolley cars should attend. Once you know the hou!
>  sing styles and > > > when they were built, then you can tell what  
> houses were there when > > > the streetcar lines were there. You  
> tell which homes were there > > > before the trolleys, which were  
> build because of the convenience of > > > the trolleys, which post  
> dated the trolleys. You will come to > > > recognize trolley  
> suburbs, bus suburbs. You can take such a course > > > in European  
> universities but unfortunately it is very uncommon in > > the > U.  
> S. A. However, I did find one offered by the Lancaster > > County >  
> Historical Society and you may equally lucky in your > > area.> >  
> You can also, with greater effort, do some of it on your !> > own  
> just by > working with maps. If this street appears first on a > >  
> 1922 map then > none of the houses could be earlier than that. If >  
> > you have enough > maps and enough street references and you look  
> > > long and hard enough, > you will become the expert. Sears  
> Roebuck > > used to sell houses in > their catalogs. Bear in min!
>  d that they > > were never ahead of the > curve, always a little  
> behin
> d it. So if > > you saw something in a 1915 > catalog, it was  
> probably at the peak > > of its popularity a few years > earlier.>  
> > > > > On Dec 10, 2008, > > at 4:37 PM, Barry, Matthew R wrote:> >  
> > A lot more private right > > of way that I had previously  
> thought. > > Note where the line comes > > off of Woodlawn Ave,  
> crosses Forbes and > > goes into what is most > > probably private  
> right of way. It moves on > > in to areas that I > > don't think  
> any other carline really ever replaced.> >> > ----- > > Original  
> Message-----> > From: pittsburgh-railways- > >  
> bounce at lists.dementia.org > > [mailto:pittsburgh-railways- > >  
> bounce at lists.dementia!> > .org] On Behalf Of > > Derrick J  
> Brashear> > Sent: Wednesday, > > December> > 10, 2008 4:07 PM> >  
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > > > Subject: [PRCo] old  
> maps of Pittsburgh and elsewhere reveal...> >> > > > http://lnk.nu/ 
> images.library.pitt.edu/r8v> >> > note the location > > of the  
> trolley line through Schenley Park (also th!
>  e> > inclines at > > the foot of S 21st St and the J&L Coal  
> incline by S > > 30th St.> > > >> >> >> >> >> >  
> _________________________________________________________________>  
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