[PRCo] Re: P-r-w, housing, cities, etc.

[John Swindler]

I was correcting your comment that Pittsburgh was Indian Country in 1800.  Census data, courthouse land records, and local property tax records say otherwise.  It happened very fast.
 
> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: P-r-w, housing, cities, etc.> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:47:17 -0500> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > Farm families needed large numbers. None of my ancestral families > were large ... four or five was huge and most were two or three.> > But the point I was trying to make was not family size or migration > but how the city grew and how much empty space there was in > Pittsburgh. The river bottoms filled up with the mills and > railroads. The large estates were in Shadyside and the east end. > But there was nothing beyond Wilkinsburg out in the hills to speak > off before the 1930s except for some coal mines and some scattered > farms and houses along the Verona trolley line. And Mount > Washington was a huge barrier that caused the areas of the city to be > pretty empty until after the trolley tunnel in 1904 and still they > really didn't fill in until the Liberty Tubes allow motor cars easy > access in the 1920s.> > West View Park and Kennywood Park were put where they were because it > was cheap empty land.> > Why was Keating Car House built a mile beyond the city limits in > 1921? It was an empty field. Trolley companies don't spend a > fortune condemning real estate and tearing old buildings down to get > space. So figure that when Glenwood Car House was built about 1890, > that was empty space. When Homewood Shops was built ... yes, that > there was three or four blocks that the Railways could get for next > to nothing.> > When these places become more valuable for something else, you sell > the land, take the cash and move out.> > West View Park closed because the land was more valuable for housing.> > Willow Grove Park in Philadelphia closed because the land was far > more valuable for a suburban shopping center.> > On Dec 10, 2008, at 9:54 PM, John Swindler wrote:> > >> >> > Might be surprised, just like I was. Generally the parents arrived > > from eastern Pa or Virginia (in my case) during 1770s (at least for > > Fayette Co., Luzerne Twp. settlement) and their kids were already > > heading west to Dayton, eastern Indiana, and Bowling Green area by > > 1800-1810. Another branch was south of Louisville by 1790s and > > south of Indianapolis by 1810. By 1840s, the grandkids had moved > > onto Minnesota, Livingston, Ill., Des Moines, Iowa etc. The great- > > grand kids had reached the rockies, San Antonio, Tex. by circa 1872 > > in their 20s, and onto Nevada/California later in life.> >> > There were a lot of large farm families with 10-15 in the > > household, or so it seemed from US census.> >> >> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: P-r-w, housing, > >> cities, etc.> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:10:05 -0500> To: > >> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > OK. Sparsely settled would > >> have been a much better term.> > On Dec 10, 2008, at 8:13 PM, John > >> Swindler wrote:> > >> >> > What is the basis for Pittsburgh being > >> Indian country in 1800??? > > 1770, maybe, but Indians gone by > >> 1800s. Need to check historical > > records.> >> > John> >> From: > >> fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] P-r-w, housing, > >> > >> cities, etc.> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:06:38 -0500> To: > >> > >> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > Uh huh. That's because the > > >> >> city was unsettled then.> > In 1700 the frontier was > >> Philadelphia, > >> Williamsburg, Boston, > Charleston, Baltimore.> > >> > In 1750 the > >> frontier was Lancaster or Charlottesville.> > > >> In 1800 Pittsburgh > >> was indian territory.> > In the 1880s > >> people were beginning to > >> move up into what is now Perry > > >> Hilltop. My grandmothers > >> neighb!> > orhood by Riverview Park off of > Perrysville Avenue was a > >> > > Watson land development from the teens of > 1920s.> > West View > > > >> Park was built in 1906. The land around it was developed > in > > that > >> period. Nothing was there.> > The older homes in > > Brookline and > >> Mount Lebanon and Dormont are > largely teens, > > twenties, a few > >> thirties, forties.> > Penn Hills? After World > > War II Levittown in > >> Bucks County was the > fastest growing > > part of Pennsylvania and > >> Penn Hills (Penn Township, > Alleghen! > > > > y County) was second. My parents bought two adjoining 1/4 > > > acre > > lots in Crescent Hills in 1937 and built a house on one of > > > them. > > Meadow Gold Dairy gave customers an aerial photograph > > of the > > > neighborhood ... about one lot in six or seven was > > filled in by > > > 1940. The rest didn't fill in until the 1960s. > > It's solid > today. > > But in the 1940s only the area around Black > > Ridge above > > > Wilkinsburg was really filled in.> > Those > > perfectly sy!> > mmetrical > > square brick houses that you see all over > > > Allegheny Co> > unty ... > > walk in the front door and the living room is > either > > to the right > > or left, the dining room is on the other side > > > with the kitchen > > behind it. The stair case goes up from the > > front > door. with three > > bedrooms and bath upstairs with the > > bath over the > kitchen. The > > basement had a single car garage > > under the > kitchen. They are > > purely late 1940s. Memorize the > > design and you > can see what > > filled in after the war. Go up > > the hill from Linden > Grove on the > > interurban and!> > you will > > find that area filled with > them. That's where John > > Swindle> > > > r's parents moved after leaving > Edgewood. A lot of homes in Penn > > > > Hills are like that ... the post > war ones.> > If you local > > > > hysterical society has a person qualified to teach the > basics > > of > > architectural history of housing, I would suggest that it > > > is > > something any railfan interested in something more than just > > the > > > trolley cars should attend. Once you know the hou!> > sing styles and > > > when they were built, then you can tell what > > houses were there when > > > the streetcar lines were there. You > > tell which homes were there > > > before the trolleys, which were > > build because of the convenience of > > > the trolleys, which post > > dated the trolleys. You will come to > > > recognize trolley > > suburbs, bus suburbs. You can take such a course > > > in European > > universities but unfortunately it is very uncommon in > > the > U. > > S. A. However, I did find one offered by the Lancaster > > County > > > Historical Society and you may equally lucky in your > > area.> > > > You can also, with greater effort, do some of it on your !> > own > > just by > working with maps. If this street appears first on a > > > > 1922 map then > none of the houses could be earlier than that. If > > > > you have enough > maps and enough street references and you look > > > > long and hard enough, > you will become the expert. Sears > > Roebuck > > used to sell houses in > their catalogs. Bear in min!> > d that they > > were never ahead of the > curve, always a little > > behin> > d it. So if > > you saw something in a 1915 > catalog, it was > > probably at the peak > > of its popularity a few years > earlier.> > > > > > > On Dec 10, 2008, > > at 4:37 PM, Barry, Matthew R wrote:> > > > > A lot more private right > > of way that I had previously > > thought. > > Note where the line comes > > off of Woodlawn Ave, > > crosses Forbes and > > goes into what is most > > probably private > > right of way. It moves on > > in to areas that I > > don't think > > any other carline really ever replaced.> >> > ----- > > Original > > Message-----> > From: pittsburgh-railways- > > > > bounce at lists.dementia.org > > [mailto:pittsburgh-railways- > > > > bounce at lists.dementia!> > .org] On Behalf Of > > Derrick J > > Brashear> > Sent: Wednesday, > > December> > 10, 2008 4:07 PM> > > > To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > > > Subject: [PRCo] old > > maps of Pittsburgh and elsewhere reveal...> >> > > > http://lnk.nu/ > > images.library.pitt.edu/r8v> >> > note the location > > of the > > trolley line through Schenley Park (also th!> > e> > inclines at > > the foot of S 21st St and the J&L Coal > > incline by S > > 30th St.> > > >> >> >> >> >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > You live life online. So we put Windows on the web.> > http:// > > clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Suspicious message? There’s an alert for that.> > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail? > > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_122008> >> > > 
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