[PRCo] Re: Fineview

Thu Dec 11 21:07:26 EST 2008

Bob, you made me do a lot of looking on line and thinking.  Thank  
you.   It was a fun exercise.

And tell me where you been too...

Now back to your mail...

You don't have abandon it Fineview or Mount Washington.   You do it  
like SEPTA does.   You simply temporarily suspend service.   Ten  
years later someone discovers that the vandals have removed all the  
copper and the city has accidently covered the rail with asphalt and  
the trolleys were sold for scrap.   And the federal government lost  
their 80% share in all the improvements that were made the year  
before you suspended service.   If the Feds try to get their money  
back, then the local politicians remind then people in Washington  
what could happen to them if they become too obstreperous.   The Feds  
back off.  Then you can argue for the next 20 years with the city  
about restoring service but it will not happen.

Realistically speaking, the City of Philadelphia lost a third of its  
population since 1950 and probably 20 percent of its jobs.  It  
started with the people moving to the suburbs.  Then the many of the  
good jobs followed them out.   Was it unrealistic to abandon a lot of  
those trolley lines?   Probably not.   You can't keep running  
trolleys to haul people that are not there.

When PAT cut the Pittsburgh Railways system to shreds in 1964, the  
city still had some vibrancy.  There were still 600,000 people living  
in the city.   Today the number is closer to 300,000.  I think  
Pittsburgh would get away with abandoning those glorious routes today  
Bob.   Pittsburgh lost more half its population since 1950 and most  
of that since 1982 when steel went down.   My instincts are telling  
me it is about to loose a lot more in this recession.   If you told  
me that Pittsburgh will only have 250,000 people in 2020, I will jump  
around in astonishment.

PennDOT used to have an annual transit survey that collected route  
patronage data.   John Swindler was the one who collected the data.    
I suspect if you went back and studied those same routes today you  
would find that some of the flagship routes like 82 (81B) Lincoln and  
8 (11D)   Perrysville and 88 (86B) Frankstown carry only a shadow of  
their former volumes.    For example, 11D Perrysville only runs every  
20 minutes now with no extra rush trippers.

Route 11E Fineview today is a combination of the old 21 Fineview , 9  
Charles shuttle, neither of which were stellar performers.   It runs  
16 trips on weekdays,  10 on Saturdays and 7 on Sundays.
Probably does not haul over 200 people a day but my hunch, knowing  
they need very small buses, is 5 to 10 people a trip x 16 trips is 80  
to 160 people a day.

The 41E Mount Washington is a slightly better performer but it isn't  
the old Mount Washington car line ... runs very infrequently near the  
incline head house ... it is a combination of the old 40 car line  
plus streets used by route 33 and some streets on the other side of  
the junction (Warrington and Beltzhoover) used by the 49 car.   In  
runs 11 times between 6 AM and 9 PM on Sundays.  Saturday service is  
about hourly but heaven forbid that they should use clock headways  
that someone could understand without a timetable.  If I counted  
correctly, there are 36 trips on weekdays ... hardly enough to  
justify a rail line.   I suspect we're looking at a line with 2,000  
people on a weekday.   An good light rail line today (Houston) has  
about 40,000 passenger / day.   The manager in Tampa was fired last  
summer because the poor guy was hired for a no win situation and then  
blamed because he had fewer than 1,000 riders a day.  Kenosha, by the  
way, is under 200 a day.

On Dec 11, 2008, at 7:53 PM, Bob Rathke wrote:

> I've been away for several weeks, and am getting back to the e-mails.
> I grew up on the North Side, and spent many days in the early 1960's
> photographing the last years of trolleys there.  This included  
> evenings with
> a tripod on E. Ohio St., Federal St. and North Ave. getting night  
> shots.  I
> never felt in danger.  I assume things are different now.
>
> In the 1965-66 period I made an effort to photograph route 21-Fineview
> trolleys at locations 100 feet apart along the line.  I didn't  
> cover every
> inch of ROW, and sometimes I had to settle for every 200 ft., but I  
> captured
> most of it.
>
> I also tried to get the more scenic locations in different  
> seasons.  I think
> I posted these photos before, but for the newcomers to the list,  
> attached
> are a couple of photos I took along the paved PRW, away from the  
> road on the
> outbound downgrade. The B&W summer photo of 1692 was taken on  
> 5/25/64; the
> color winter photo of 1697 was taken at the exact same location on  
> 1/29/66.
>
> Considering the scenic views and short length of the trolley lines,  
> I don't
> think that PAT would get away with abandoning routes 21 or 40 today.
>
> Bob 12/11/08
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "BobDietrich" <bob.dietrich1 at verizon.net>
> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:03 AM
> Subject: [PRCo] I rode 40 Mt. Worshington
>
>
>> I suppose I have to admit to riding Rt. 40 once or twice, but not  
>> as a
>> railfan.  I liked to watch the line poles zip by in the way up  
>> Southern
>> Ave.
>> That was not a place to hang an arm out the window.  I am still  
>> amazed the
>> way the center of the outbound car hung way over the curb at  
>> Southern &
>> Natchez, people knew how far back to stand.
>>
>> For a few years I rode to St. Mary's school getting, off at  
>> Bingham St.,
>> but
>> I very seldom rode further than that and I don't remember it much  
>> except
>> trying to get into the conductor's seat when we got a special car.  I
>> didn't
>> experience the Olympia to Bingham hill very often on the  
>> streetcar.  I did
>> ride my Schwinn through that section often enough.  We would ride  
>> down
>> full
>> speed, on the sidewalk, and try to get to the top of the next hill  
>> without
>> pedaling.  Going the opposite was it was full speed down and pump  
>> like
>> crazy
>> to get to the top.  I made it once or twice. What is that grade?
>>
>> Fineview!  That was on the Nortside and you could get killed over  
>> there or
>> even something worse, so we stayed away
>>
>> I guess I don't want to get deeper into my youth than that...
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org
>> [mailto:pittsburgh-railways-bounce at lists.dementia.org] On Behalf Of
>> Schneider Fred
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 5:55 PM
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Indian cultural differences
>>
>> I think most of us on the list probably rode 21 and 40.  I did.  I'm
>> sure John Swindler did.
>>
>> On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:42 PM, Jerry MATT Matsick wrote:
>>
>>> What part of Pichburg is India?    Been reading these posts and
>>> haven't found it on the PRCo map?
>>> Anyway, got a question, any of our group ride the Fineview
>>> route?    I am still kicking my boney butt
>>> as to why I never took the time to ride it?      Another route
>>> would have been the Mt Washington Car,
>>> what a ride that must have been.   Shoulda coulda days are gone,
>>> but would be great to hear from
>>> those of you who might have?
>>> Jerry Matsick
>>> Jacksonville
>>> --
>>> From: Jerry "Matt" Matsick
>>>
>>> AGING: Eventually you will reach a point when you
>>> stop lying about your age and start Bragging
>>> about it.
>>>
>>> -------------- Original message from Derrick J Brashear
>>> <shadow at dementia.org>: --------------
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, Edward H. Lybarger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm getting awfully tired of India...and my delete key is white- 
>>>>> hot.
>>>>
>>>> Don't look at me. I've said nothing of India.
>>>>
>>>> Airport Parkway, OTOH, guilty.
>>>>
>>>> I found in 1959 newspapers accounts of how it became limited
>>>> access after
>>>> a state decision, when before that it was just the county pleading
>>>> with
>>>> the townships to not allow development along it.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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