[PRCo] Re: Pen's get new luxury hotel

[Schneider Fred]

Imagined tax revenues is the answer.  Underscore the word imagined.  
They all look at what happened in Toronto in the 1950s and 1960s and  
think it will automatically happen here too.   But the transit  
facility is only one ingredient to success.   First of all, the  
Canadians had a mentality that allowed downtowns to survive.   They  
patronized them.   Downtown Toronto and its many neighborhoods  
remained vibrant after Frankford or Lancaster Avenue in Philadelphia  
or East Liberty or the North Side in Pittsburgh had collapsed because  
we don't want to shop in town.
Second there is a feeling that trolleys will bring in tourists.   If  
you look at those heritage lines that were built just for tourists,  
they have the lowest average weekday riding in North America, ranging  
from Little Rock with about 400 to  Tampa with only 900 and Memphis  
with about 3000 on two lines.   People don't go to a city just to  
ride a trolley car.   They may go to a city as a tourist and then  
ride the trolley (they provide a very advantageous supplement to New  
Orleans RTA and San Francisco Muni's business) but those were already  
tourist capitals.

The lines that have worked are those like Houston that serve a whole  
flock of hospitals, a college, a park, a stadium, and a thriving  
down ...then you get 40,000 riders a day on one line.

Portland is an enigma to me ... the light rail fits in with the  
culture ... it fits there like it fits in Europe but doesn't fit in  
Memphis ... it fits because the mentality of the people there accept  
urban life.   I can think of no better way to explain it.   The end  
result is 106,000 riders a day.  But you cannot transpose that  
culture into an eastern city of the same population any easier than  
you could take a European pedestrian mall concept and impose it on  
East Liberty in the 1980s.  It will not work.   The Oregonians are  
very jealous about their culture and keeping out the riff raff.    
Some years back Garrison Keilor put on his Prairie Home Companion  
show from Portland and he commented that they had a whole lot of  
unpronounceable names out there (Willamette River is prounced Wil-lam- 
et) so that they can tell who is a stranger and send him home at five  
o'clock.   Keilor had picked up on the culture.   I think that, as  
much as anything, accounts for the success of the light rail in  
Portland.   I've looked at it four times and nothing else makes sense.


On Dec 17, 2008, at 8:47 PM, John Swindler wrote:

>
>
> It's not the trolley line as such, it's the imagined tax revenue  
> increase that city officials covet.  Goes back to Portland.
>
> John
>
>> From: mtoytrain at bellsouth.net> To: pittsburgh- 
>> railways at dementia.org> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Pen's get new luxury  
>> hotel> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:33:17 +0000> > Fred is absolutely  
>> correct about having a "Wet Dream and have to have a Trolley  
>> Line", through out the> fast growing South, just about every city  
>> is talking trolley line and many all ready have them, don't think>  
>> Jacksonville will have one all though over 1 million plus live  
>> here,, the population is to spread out.> one thing about  
>> Pittsburgh is the news or reports from first time visitors to the  
>> Burg tell me, it would be> great to have a trolley to the strip or  
>> university section of the city, with the New Pen Arena and new>  
>> business and entertainment going in on Center Ave a trolley would  
>> make sense, but not CENTS!> J> From: Jerry "Matt" Matsick > >  
>> AGING: Eventually you will reach a point when you > stop lying  
>> about your age and start Bragging > about it.> > --------------  
>> Original message from Schneider Fred <fwschn!
>  eider at comcast.net>: -------------- > > > > I'm not going to  
> disclose the name of the friend who wrote this other > > than to  
> say the man was in railway equipment engineering all his > > life.  
> It came in an e-mail this morning in response to my sending > > him  
> the announcement of one more "wet dream" about a streetcar > >  
> line. I think this last one might have been the people in Waco, > >  
> Texas saying, 'Hey man, we gots to have a trolley.' > > "One thing  
> about this emerging development: I am getting a clearer > >  
> understanding of how streetcar systems over-expanded in the early >  
> > 1900s. We are seeing the exact same phenomenon now...streetcars  
> have > > suddenly become the definition of what a modern city  
> should have, and > > unknowledgable city fathers are all pushing  
> them without any clear > > business plan for whether it makes sense  
> for their city. The only > > difference is that now it's  
> governmental money (us) instead of > > gullible private investors."  
> > > > > I can pr!
>  edict that Ken Josephson will agree with him. Jerry might > > not.  
> And
>  I'm going to say I want the limited tax dollars put where > > they  
> are making sense, that is in cities that are expanding and > >  
> proving that rail is making sense and most of those, sadly for most  
> > > of us, are well to the west of the Mississippi River. I'm  
> having a > > problem with putting it in places like Buffalo, St.  
> Louis, Detroit or > > Pittsburgh, where there are massive  
> population declines, and then > > proving that it works by having  
> artificially low fares. > > > > Now if you can figure how to get  
> someone to invest 100,000 high end > > new jobs in Allegheny  
> County.... (No that would be too many, in > > the end it would  
> result in a million more people.) > > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 2008,  
> at 12:27 PM, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 17 Dec  
> 2008, Jerry MATT Matsick wrote: > > > > > >> Perhaps the stir of  
> new Center Avenue area Hotel will convince the > > >> city > > >>  
> to put a new street car line in? > > > > > > When a local  
> libertarian proposed a streetc!
>  ar line on South 21st St > > > I knew > > > they had some broader  
> appeal. Still, as a realist, "not gonna happen" > > > > > > I  
> passed the site less than 24 hours ago. Right now the old > > >  
> hopsital is > > > just a big hole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
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