[PRCo] Re: Trolley widths or dimensions

Sat May 10 16:29:22 EDT 2008

What has a European PCC got to do with the price of kidney beans in  
Valadvostok?

Politicians will do anything to get something unique in their community.

We cannot buy something off the shelf.   I cannot say that would be  
un-American but it certainly would be un-political.   Just look at  
BART at their wide gauge trains because everyone knows that standard  
gauge trains aren't stable at the speeds BART wanted to run them.    
Everyone but the French, the Germans, the British, the Italians, the  
Japanese and anyone else who is running super high speed trains.

By the way, there was a comment about San Francisco and double end  
cars and the lack of a loop at the Embarcadero station.   Seems to me  
that that whole deal was paid for by BART and the City of San  
Francisco had no input other than "take it or leave it."   I could be  
wrong but I thought that BART was paying to build its subway and the  
Muni Metro and the San Francisco PUC didn't put any money in it.    
Correct me if I'm wrong.

fws

On May 10, 2008, at 4:14 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:

> Mr.Swindler!
>
>
> 108" would be 2.7432 meters wouldn't it.  Rounding up to 2.75   
> (108.268")  would seem very logical.  You mentioned that our modern  
> rail vehicles are knock-offs of European; maybe they just adapted  
> the standard Euro width.  We would probably find every width  
> imaginable before PCCs wouldn't we.  There were 104" PCCs or widths  
> other than 100" and 108" but they were in the minority.
>
> Another very big difference with modern rail cars is that the  
> kingpin centers are much greater than on a city streetcar of yore   
> (except for SF, Boston, and Philly where they run on old streetcar  
> systems.)  This allows for greater comfort and a smoother ride but  
> increases overhang on sharp radii doesn't it.  Modern systems built  
> from scratch avoid the sharper radii for the most part, city  
> streets being the biggest exception.
>
> It would seem that the rail cars used in SF are overbuilt for the  
> job.  European PCCs with MU would be just as effective and would  
> then make the historical PCCs part of a larger fleet re: parts and  
> maintenance.
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
>> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 7:23:44 AM
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST
>>
>> But San Francisco had 108 inch wide PCC cars.  Why specify a 2.65  
>> meter wide
>> car?  Same with St. Louis, Denver, Salt Lake, Portland,  
>> Sacramento, San Diego,
>> etc.?  But then again, I'm preaching to the choir.  It's free  
>> money, and why
>> waste any effort maximizing comfort for the riff-raff that use  
>> public transit.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series  
>>> LOST> Date:
>> Fri, 9 May 2008 23:50:40 -0400> To: pittsburgh- 
>> railways at dementia.org> > But the
>> standard PCC was 100 inches (8'-4"). A 2.65 meter (104.33 > inch)  
>> car might not
>> fit on existing systems --- certainly not > Pittsburgh or  
>> Philadelphia. It
>> probably would fit in San Francisco > because they had wide cars  
>> to begin with.>
>>> You comment John about consultants pasting in is astute. Remember  
>>> > George
>> Krambles starting a scholarship fund?> > George Krambles and Bill  
>> Jassen were
>> among the last people I knew who > had degrees in railway electrical
>> engineering. Bill got his on the > GI Bill right after World War  
>> II. I think
>> Bill's was just before > the war. It eventually got to the point  
>> where the
>> consults were > telling the industry, I know everything. But there  
>> was no school
>>> they could go to learn everything.> > On May 9, 2008, at 11:27  
>>> PM, John
>> Swindler wrote:> > >> > The specs tend to be written for what the!
>>   customer wants. Or > > rather what a consultant will cut and  
>> paste from his
>> prior bid > > documents. Also, ask youself why US light rail cars  
>> are 2.65 > >
>> meters wide when we had 108 inch wide PCC cars?? Shaker ran 108 >  
>> > inch wide
>> PCC cars. Baltimore is an exception with wider light > > rail  
>> cars.> >> > As for
>> European designs, most US light rail cars are 'knock offs' > > of  
>> the Frankfurt
>> U-2 car dating from the early 1970s.> >> > John> >> Date: Fri, 9  
>> May 2008
>> 13:08:53 -0700> From: hrbran at sbcglobal.net> > >> Subject: [PRCo]  
>> Re: 3800 Series
>> LOST> To: pittsburgh- > >> railways at dementia.org> > What would be  
>> the items not
>> being met?> > > >> Usually it is the European transit vehicle  
>> which is superior
>> to > >> the US produced one. Take the RTS-1, RTS-2  
>> buses..........awful to > >>
>> operate, no room inside, hard for some passengers to board and >  
>> >> alight, slow
>> moving, limited visibility, and not so pleasing > >> looks. The  
>> European buses
>> have plenty of room, fast acceleration!
>>>>> and braking, ease of entrance and exit for passengers, superior
>>>>> turning radius, good visibility, a nicely designed operators  
>>>>> area, > >> not
>> to mention a much better looking product on the outside and > >>  
>> inside.> > >
>> John Swindler wrote:> > > A > >> European PCC would not
>> meet the bid specs. of US transit > >> authorities. > > > Date:  
>> Fri, 9 May 2008
>> 10:57:04 -0700> From: > >> hrbran at sbcglobal.net> Subject: [PRCo]  
>> Re: 3800 Series
>> LOST> To: > >> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > !> > That was a  
>> US based
>> comment. The US transit authorities can buy > > from other  
>> countries as long as
>> assembly of the car is here in the > > US and a certain percentage  
>> of the parts
>> are US made. It is done > > with the NABI bus. Ironically, NABI  
>> stands for North
>> American Bus > > Industries. Cleveland's 400+ fleet of NABI low- 
>> floors are
>> actually > > a European product. Some of the parts are US  
>> manufactured and the >
>>> bus is assembled in the US. However, some of the product is made  
>>> in > > Europe
>> and shipped to the US assembly pla!
>> nts to be matched up with > > the the US manufactured parts and  
>> then assembled
>> into finished > > buses. Perhaps the European PCC manufacturers  
>> did not place
>> bids on > > any cars for US transit authorities. The European  
>> manufacturers > >
>> would have a "hard sell" to get US transit authorities to buy  
>> their > > cars, I
>> believe. This is do to the mindset, among> !> US transit > >  
>> executives, which
>> says we should have over sized cars, utilizing > > over sized  
>> centenary systems
>> and overbuilt roadbed. This is not w!> > hat> I would propose for  
>> a light rail
>> system; it is what the > > "powers t> > hat be" dictate.  
>> Simplicity of design,
>> in my opinion, creates a > > more pleasing product in the end  
>> which is easier to
>> maintain, looks > > far better, and serves it purpose with grace  
>> and ease.>
>> Boris Cefer > > wrote: No upgrades? We had been upgrading them for  
>> more than 40
>>>> years since the > production in the US ended!> > Boris> > -----  
>>>> > > Original
>> Message ----- > From: "Herb Brannon"!
>>>>> ---------------------------------> > To: > > Sent: Friday, May
>> 09, > > 2008 2:07 AM> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST> >  
>> > ......... I > >
>> personally think the only really good streetcar is the PCC. The >  
>> > > older cars
>> are slow, clumsy, far too noisy, and hard to operate. > > The PCC  
>> was > made for
>> running in mixed traffic and accomplished > > that task very well.  
>> > Today the
>> LRV type cars a!> re made for > > private right of way or  
>> segregated > street
>> operation and > they > > accomplish that task very well. Even the  
>> PCC is >
>> becoming "dated" > > in its appearance. Too bad there were never  
>> any further > >
>>> 'upgrades' to them.> > Herb B!> > rannon > > > > > > Herb  
>>> Brannon> > Greetings
>> From America's North > > Coast> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> _________________________________________________________________>  
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>> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008> > > > > Herb Brannon>  
>> > > >
>> Greetings From Ameri!
>> ca's North Coast> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
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