[PRCo] Re: Trolley widths or dimensions

Sat May 10 22:26:57 EDT 2008

> fwschneider commented:> > By the way, there was a comment about San Francisco and double end > cars and the lack of a loop at the Embarcadero station. Seems to me > that that whole deal was paid for by BART and the City of San > Francisco had no input other than "take it or leave it." I could be > wrong but I thought that BART was paying to build its subway and the > Muni Metro and the San Francisco PUC didn't put any money in it. > Correct me if I'm wrong.> 

This was discussed in detail last weekend at Ed's, and how MUNI management didn't seem to have given any thought to putting their five line rail system underground with a stub end terminal at Embarcadero.   Remember the comments about 30 second headways in the Philly subway-surface tunnel, which is beyond the comprehension of modern day signal designers.
You were there. 

John

John> fws> > > > On May 10, 2008, at 4:14 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:> > > Mr.Swindler!> >> >> > 108" would be 2.7432 meters wouldn't it. Rounding up to 2.75 > > (108.268") would seem very logical. You mentioned that our modern > > rail vehicles are knock-offs of European; maybe they just adapted > > the standard Euro width. We would probably find every width > > imaginable before PCCs wouldn't we. There were 104" PCCs or widths > > other than 100" and 108" but they were in the minority.> >> > Another very big difference with modern rail cars is that the > > kingpin centers are much greater than on a city streetcar of yore > > (except for SF, Boston, and Philly where they run on old streetcar > > systems.) This allows for greater comfort and a smoother ride but > > increases overhang on sharp radii doesn't it. Modern systems built > > from scratch avoid the sharper radii for the most part, city > > streets being the biggest exception.> >> > It would seem that the rail cars used in SF are overbuilt for the > > job. European PCCs with MU would be just as effective and would > > then make the historical PCCs part of a larger fleet re: parts and > > maintenance.> >> >> > Phil> >> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> >> From: John Swindler <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> >> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 7:23:44 AM> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST> >>> >> But San Francisco had 108 inch wide PCC cars. Why specify a 2.65 > >> meter wide> >> car? Same with St. Louis, Denver, Salt Lake, Portland, > >> Sacramento, San Diego,> >> etc.? But then again, I'm preaching to the choir. It's free > >> money, and why> >> waste any effort maximizing comfort for the riff-raff that use > >> public transit.> >>> >> John> >>> >>> >>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series > >>> LOST> Date:> >> Fri, 9 May 2008 23:50:40 -0400> To: pittsburgh- > >> railways at dementia.org> > But the> >> standard PCC was 100 inches (8'-4"). A 2.65 meter (104.33 > inch) > >> car might not> >> fit on existing systems --- certainly not > Pittsburgh or > >> Philadelphia. It> >> probably would fit in San Francisco > because they had wide cars > >> to begin with.>> >>> You comment John about consultants pasting in is astute. Remember > >>> > George> >> Krambles starting a scholarship fund?> > George Krambles and Bill > >> Jassen were> >> among the last people I knew who > had degrees in railway electrical> >> engineering. Bill got his on the > GI Bill right after World War > >> II. I think> >> Bill's was just before > the war. It eventually got to the point > >> where the> >> consults were > telling the industry, I know everything. But there > >> was no school> >>> they could go to learn everything.> > On May 9, 2008, at 11:27 > >>> PM, John> >> Swindler wrote:> > >> > The specs tend to be written for what the!> >> customer wants. Or > > rather what a consultant will cut and > >> paste from his> >> prior bid > > documents. Also, ask youself why US light rail cars > >> are 2.65 > >> >> meters wide when we had 108 inch wide PCC cars?? Shaker ran 108 > > >> > inch wide> >> PCC cars. Baltimore is an exception with wider light > > rail > >> cars.> >> > As for> >> European designs, most US light rail cars are 'knock offs' > > of > >> the Frankfurt> >> U-2 car dating from the early 1970s.> >> > John> >> Date: Fri, 9 > >> May 2008> >> 13:08:53 -0700> From: hrbran at sbcglobal.net> > >> Subject: [PRCo] > >> Re: 3800 Series> >> LOST> To: pittsburgh- > >> railways at dementia.org> > What would be > >> the items not> >> being met?> > > >> Usually it is the European transit vehicle > >> which is superior> >> to > >> the US produced one. Take the RTS-1, RTS-2 > >> buses..........awful to > >>> >> operate, no room inside, hard for some passengers to board and > > >> >> alight, slow> >> moving, limited visibility, and not so pleasing > >> looks. The > >> European buses> >> have plenty of room, fast acceleration!> >>>>> and braking, ease of entrance and exit for passengers, superior> >>>>> turning radius, good visibility, a nicely designed operators > >>>>> area, > >> not> >> to mention a much better looking product on the outside and > >> > >> inside.> > >> >> John Swindler wrote:> > > A > >> European PCC would not> >> meet the bid specs. of US transit > >> authorities. > > > Date: > >> Fri, 9 May 2008> >> 10:57:04 -0700> From: > >> hrbran at sbcglobal.net> Subject: [PRCo] > >> Re: 3800 Series> >> LOST> To: > >> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > !> > That was a > >> US based> >> comment. The US transit authorities can buy > > from other > >> countries as long as> >> assembly of the car is here in the > > US and a certain percentage > >> of the parts> >> are US made. It is done > > with the NABI bus. Ironically, NABI > >> stands for North> >> American Bus > > Industries. Cleveland's 400+ fleet of NABI low- > >> floors are> >> actually > > a European product. Some of the parts are US > >> manufactured and the >> >>> bus is assembled in the US. However, some of the product is made > >>> in > > Europe> >> and shipped to the US assembly pla!> >> nts to be matched up with > > the the US manufactured parts and > >> then assembled> >> into finished > > buses. Perhaps the European PCC manufacturers > >> did not place> >> bids on > > any cars for US transit authorities. The European > >> manufacturers > >> >> would have a "hard sell" to get US transit authorities to buy > >> their > > cars, I> >> believe. This is do to the mindset, among> !> US transit > > > >> executives, which> >> says we should have over sized cars, utilizing > > over sized > >> centenary systems> >> and overbuilt roadbed. This is not w!> > hat> I would propose for > >> a light rail> >> system; it is what the > > "powers t> > hat be" dictate. > >> Simplicity of design,> >> in my opinion, creates a > > more pleasing product in the end > >> which is easier to> >> maintain, looks > > far better, and serves it purpose with grace > >> and ease.>> >> Boris Cefer > > wrote: No upgrades? We had been upgrading them for > >> more than 40> >>>> years since the > production in the US ended!> > Boris> > ----- > >>>> > > Original> >> Message ----- > From: "Herb Brannon"!> >>>>> ---------------------------------> > To: > > Sent: Friday, May> >> 09, > > 2008 2:07 AM> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST> > > >> > ......... I > >> >> personally think the only really good streetcar is the PCC. The > > >> > > older cars> >> are slow, clumsy, far too noisy, and hard to operate. > > The PCC > >> was > made for> >> running in mixed traffic and accomplished > > that task very well. > >> > Today the> >> LRV type cars a!> re made for > > private right of way or > >> segregated > street> >> operation and > they > > accomplish that task very well. Even the > >> PCC is >> >> becoming "dated" > > in its appearance. Too bad there were never > >> any further > >> >>> 'upgrades' to them.> > Herb B!> > rannon > > > > > > Herb > >>> Brannon> > Greetings> >> From America's North > > Coast> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> _________________________________________________________________> > >> > > Stay in> >> touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger.> http:// > >> >> www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html? > >> >> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008> > > > > Herb Brannon> > >> > > >> >> Greetings From Ameri!> >> ca's North Coast> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________> > >> > Make> >> Windows Vista more reliable and secure with Windows Vista > > > >> Service Pack 1.> >> >> http://www.windowsvista.com/SP1?WT.mc_id=hotmailvistasp1banner> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________> >> Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends.> >> http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html? > >> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_052008> >> >> >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________> > Be a better friend, newshound, and> > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http:// > > mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ> >> >> > 
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