[PRCo] Re: Trolley widths or dimensions

Sat May 10 17:00:34 EDT 2008

----- Original Message ----
> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 1:29:22 PM
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Trolley widths or dimensions
> 
> What has a European PCC got to do with the price of kidney beans in  
> Valadvostok?
> 

Absolutely everything sir; please look it up in Wiki  (Big Smiley here!)

> Politicians will do anything to get something unique in their community.
> 
> We cannot buy something off the shelf.   I cannot say that would be  
> un-American but it certainly would be un-political.   Just look at  
> BART at their wide gauge trains because everyone knows that standard  
> gauge trains aren't stable at the speeds BART wanted to run them.    
> Everyone but the French, the Germans, the British, the Italians, the  
> Japanese and anyone else who is running super high speed trains.
> 

The PCC represents the past which was denigrated by everyone after the war so that fits the above cynical comments.  These are comments we have all made so I am not criticizing am I.

> By the way, there was a comment about San Francisco and double end  
> cars and the lack of a loop at the Embarcadero station.   Seems to me  
> that that whole deal was paid for by BART and the City of San  
> Francisco had no input other than "take it or leave it."   I could be  
> wrong but I thought that BART was paying to build its subway and the  
> Muni Metro and the San Francisco PUC didn't put any money in it.    
> Correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> fws

This seems correct about the original construction in San Francisco doesn't it;  BART funded reconstruction through West Portal as well didn't they and BART is literally miles away at this point.  However,  in the 1980s-1990s when the underground was extended along the Embarcadero by Muni alone  (separate from BART at this point I believe)  it was reported that a loop would be constructed but apparently wasn't; seems there are storage tracks and areas outside the station for changing ends.

Phil

> 
> 
> 
> On May 10, 2008, at 4:14 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
> 
> > Mr.Swindler!
> >
> >
> > 108" would be 2.7432 meters wouldn't it.  Rounding up to 2.75  
> > (108.268")  would seem very logical.  You mentioned that our modern  
> > rail vehicles are knock-offs of European; maybe they just adapted  
> > the standard Euro width.  We would probably find every width  
> > imaginable before PCCs wouldn't we.  There were 104" PCCs or widths  
> > other than 100" and 108" but they were in the minority.
> >
> > Another very big difference with modern rail cars is that the  
> > kingpin centers are much greater than on a city streetcar of yore  
> > (except for SF, Boston, and Philly where they run on old streetcar  
> > systems.)  This allows for greater comfort and a smoother ride but  
> > increases overhang on sharp radii doesn't it.  Modern systems built  
> > from scratch avoid the sharper radii for the most part, city  
> > streets being the biggest exception.
> >
> > It would seem that the rail cars used in SF are overbuilt for the  
> > job.  European PCCs with MU would be just as effective and would  
> > then make the historical PCCs part of a larger fleet re: parts and  
> > maintenance.
> >
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: John Swindler 
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org
> >> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 7:23:44 AM
> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST
> >>
> >> But San Francisco had 108 inch wide PCC cars.  Why specify a 2.65  
> >> meter wide
> >> car?  Same with St. Louis, Denver, Salt Lake, Portland,  
> >> Sacramento, San Diego,
> >> etc.?  But then again, I'm preaching to the choir.  It's free  
> >> money, and why
> >> waste any effort maximizing comfort for the riff-raff that use  
> >> public transit.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series  
> >>> LOST> Date:
> >> Fri, 9 May 2008 23:50:40 -0400> To: pittsburgh- 
> >> railways at dementia.org> > But the
> >> standard PCC was 100 inches (8'-4"). A 2.65 meter (104.33 > inch)  
> >> car might not
> >> fit on existing systems --- certainly not > Pittsburgh or  
> >> Philadelphia. It
> >> probably would fit in San Francisco > because they had wide cars  
> >> to begin with.>

> > On May 9, 2008, at 11:27  
> >>> PM, John
> >> Swindler wrote:> > >> > The specs tend to be written for what the!
> >>   customer wants. Or > > rather what a consultant will cut and  
> >> paste from his
> >> prior bid > > documents. Also, ask youself why US light rail cars  
> >> are 2.65 > >
> >> meters wide when we had 108 inch wide PCC cars?? Shaker ran 108 >  
> >> > inch wide
> >> PCC cars. Baltimore is an exception with wider light > > rail  
> >> cars.> >> > As for
> >> European designs, most US light rail cars are 'knock offs' > > of  
> >> the Frankfurt
> >> U-2 car dating from the early 1970s.> >> > John> >> Date: Fri, 9  
> >> May 2008
> >> 13:08:53 -0700> From: hrbran at sbcglobal.net> > >> Subject: [PRCo]  
> >> Re: 3800 Series
> >> LOST> To: pittsburgh- > >> railways at dementia.org> > What would be  
> >> the items not
> >> being met?> > > >> Usually it is the European transit vehicle  
> >> which is superior
> >> to > >> the US produced one. Take the RTS-1, RTS-2  
> >> buses..........awful to > >>
> >> operate, no room inside, hard for some passengers to board and >  
> >> >> alight, slow
> >> moving, limited visibility, and not so pleasing > >> looks. The  
> >> European buses
> >> have plenty of room, fast acceleration!
> >>>>> and braking, ease of entrance and exit for passengers, superior
> >>>>> turning radius, good visibility, a nicely designed operators  
> >>>>> area, > >> not
> >> to mention a much better looking product on the outside and > >>  
> >> inside.> > >
> >> John Swindler wrote:> > > A > >> European PCC would not
> >> meet the bid specs. of US transit > >> authorities. > > > Date:  
> >> Fri, 9 May 2008
> >> 10:57:04 -0700> From: > >> hrbran at sbcglobal.net> Subject: [PRCo]  
> >> Re: 3800 Series
> >> LOST> To: > >> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > !> > That was a  
> >> US based
> >> comment. The US transit authorities can buy > > from other  
> >> countries as long as
> >> assembly of the car is here in the > > US and a certain percentage  
> >> of the parts
> >> are US made. It is done > > with the NABI bus. Ironically, NABI  
> >> stands for North
> >> American Bus > > Industries. 

 Perhaps the European PCC manufacturers  
> >> did not place
> >> bids on > > any cars for US transit authorities. The European  
> >> manufacturers > >
> >> would have a "hard sell" to get US transit authorities to buy  
> >> their > > cars, I
> >> believe. This is do to the mindset, among> !> US transit > >  
> >> executives, which
> >> says we should have over sized cars, utilizing > > over sized  
> >> centenary systems
> >> and overbuilt roadbed. This is not w!> > hat> I would propose for  
> >> a light rail
> >> system; it is what the > > "powers t> > hat be" dictate.  
> >> Simplicity of design,
> >> in my opinion, creates a > > more pleasing product in the end  
> >> which is easier to
> >> maintain, looks > > far better, and serves it purpose with grace  
> >> and ease.>
> >> Boris Cefer > > wrote: No upgrades? We had been upgrading them for  
> >> more than 40
> >>>> years since the > production in the US ended!> > Boris> > -----  
> >>>> > > Original
> >> Message ----- > From: "Herb Brannon"!
> >>>>> ---------------------------------> > To: > > Sent: Friday, May
> >> 09, > > 2008 2:07 AM> Subject: [PRCo] Re: 3800 Series LOST> >  
> >> > ......... I > >
> >> personally think the only really good streetcar is the PCC. The >  
> >> > > older cars
> >> are slow, clumsy, far too noisy, and hard to operate. > > The PCC  
> >> was > made for
> >> running in mixed traffic and accomplished > > that task very well.  
> >> > Today the
> >> LRV type cars a!> re made for > > private right of way or  
> >> segregated > street
> >> operation and > they > > accomplish that task very well. Even the  
> >> PCC is >
> >> becoming "dated" > > in its appearance. Too bad there were never  
> >> any further > >
> >>> 'upgrades' to them.> > Herb B!> > rannon > > > > > > Herb  
> >>> Brannon> > Greetings
> >> From America's North > > Coast> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

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