[PRCo] Re: Backing interurban cars

Sat May 10 21:47:45 EDT 2008

Correction on Dormont Wye dates:  42 cars were wyed in Dormont into the early 1980s.  They were rush hour trippers.  

And all 42/38 cars might have been wyed in Dormont during the first stage of the Beechview light rail upgrading.

As for Donora Wye, in the early days alternate cars through cars to Pittsburgh operated Charleroi and Donora.  (see Monongahela Valley Republician circa 1905)  Definitely needed when the 3700s replaced the 3200s.  

Then there was the time several of us needed some pix of a Brill trackless on the streets of Chicago.  (:>)

John

> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: Backing interurban cars> Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 21:05:09 -0400> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > Probably each state had it's own legislation or orders requiring (or > ignoring) safety appliances. In Pennsylvania the order required > that all cars operated by one-man required safety appliances by the > close of the calendar year 1938. I have never read the order. I > believe it was not a legislative edict but rather a general order > from the Pennsylvania Public Utilities Commission, and if that were > be so, it would have no affect at all today because the PUC has no > jurisdiction over public agencies.> > Dick Steinmetz, who lived in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania, and survived > well into his 90s in the 1980s, had labored for Valley Railways in > 1938 installing deadman equipment on their older cars so they could > legally continue to run them.> > I suspect that there was a very large market in the 1930s in > emergency valves, deadman-heads for controllers, and air solenoids to > kick off canopy switches, and that a lot of time was spent installing > new piping on cars. Because most of the odd equipment didn't > survive, we don't know how companies rebuilt the old cars. The > 1920s cars, for the most part, already had deadman controls. > Manufacturers simply built them that way. The older stuff was not > around when museums were being built, except places like Branford and > Seashore. So we don't know ... do we ... what happened in > Pennsylvania?> > I some cases we simply did nothing. Conestoga Transportation > Company, in Lancaster, Pa., had a group of World War I era steel cars > with remote control that were scrapped before World War II. The kept > cars 54, 63 and 64 that had K-35 controllers until final abandonment > in 1937. The average bloke might conclude that the didn't like the > HL or PC controls on 55-62 (I forget which). That might be true. > But what was also true is that they had spent the money to apply > safety appliance to 54, 63 and 64 and not to the remote control > cars. So when 1939 dawned, they could only run those other cars if > they put a second man on them. They didn't need them so then sent > them to the fire pit and then picked up the scrap that remained.> > Did all cars get M-25 or similar brake valves, like those on a Birney > car, that had the doors incorporated into the valve? No, because in > this state that wasn't part of the law. So you also did not need > that part of the emergency valve that was connected to the emergency > part of the brake valve. Any valve worked.> > I suspect that, without even reading the PUC order, that back up > controls were exempt. Why? Because 3756 does not have a deadman > on the back up controller. Logically, back up controls were used > only for switching moves when no one but employees were on the car. > Another clue is Art's statement that you could back a 3800 by hooking > the deadman down on a those cars. Ah, two different types of back > up controllers. The one on 3756 has all 10 points connected to the > resistors ... you notch through points 1 to 5 in series and 6-10 in > parallel. Of course only a fool is going to back pole a car at 40 > mph, but you could do it. But he has told us (and you need to > interpret from his statements) that the back up controller on a 3800 > was nothing more than an on-off switch. You hooked the dead-man > down up front and then turned the controls on and off from the rear. > Go see the single-end Snelling Shops built wooden car that the > Minneapolis Trolley Museums runs on their line at Lake Calhoun in > Minneapolis in the summer months and you can watch a similar scheme > being used.> > What I say next has been here before. One of the more curious > installations was the one on West Penn 280s and 700s (and 212 and > 204). West Penn told the PUC that it was impossible on their cars > because they had no air and the PUC told West Penn to figure a way > and do it anyway. The result was a small electric motor mounted > under the front of the car with a right angle drive to the bottom of > the controller shaft. If you took your hand off the button on their > controllers, it notched them back through back to the full brake > position. Of course someone on the car needed to have the presence > of mind to wind up the hand brake or the car was still going to run > away at 10 mph if it was on a grade.> > Donora Wye was a lovely example of PRC doing things on the cheap. > It was only a wye coming from Pittsburgh but a loop from the south. > Why tear up the street and put in two more switches if you are only > going to use it for one Riverview tripper in the afternoon? Let the > operator make enough noise with the gong and hope no one gets in the > way!!!!!!!! Perhaps they used the Donora local motorman because at > that time of the day the Donora cars were extended through > Monongahela to Riverview loop.> > Pittsburgh was no averse to backing PCC cars into our out of wyes. > Remember, they did it all they time at Dormont until 42 and 38 were > combined in 1963 and they did it for eons at Wilmerding until a loop > was finally built for 87 cars. I can't find that in the route cards > because it was after World War II ... the wye was still used when my > mentor in this hobby, John Seibert, photographed a 4800 in it in > 1949. St. Louis Public Service wyed the PCCs at the end of the > University-Clayton line in Clayton, Missouri, until that line was > abandoned circa 1963, but, in deference to them, that wye was on > private right-of-way a block from the nearest city street and across > a private bridge from the nearest street.> > Professionalism? Every company has its idiots. If you have 3000 > or 4000 employees, even 5% duds is 150 to 200 people. We all know > those stories. I love the one about keeping the girl friend warm. > I've run a McKinney Avenue car the whole length of the line in Dallas > on a Sunday evening and so has Ed Lybarger. I've run a Toronto Witt > on the streets and 1707 in Pittsburgh on 38-A and on route 56. I've > motored a Silverliner on the Pennsy mainline all the way from > Harrisburg to Lancaster on evening on the way home from work (in that > case the engineman has since retired).> > Donald Duke, the man who owns Golden West Books, had a lovely > story. Turns out that A. O. Smith, the president of Pacific > Electric was a card playing buddy of Don's father, Norman Duke. One > night when Smith was over at the house in San Marino, he asked Duke, > "Do you know what Donny has been doing in the evenings?" Well it > turns out that Smith got onto a Glendora local one night and inquired > who was running the car? Seems that both the motorman and the > conductor were back in the car. The motorman was studying for his > college courses. Don knew that and took advantage. Every night we > would go up to meet that car after dinner and spell the motorman and > make a round trip to the end of the line on an 1100.> > I guess that was no different that me spending my evenings in the > summer of 1957 in CORK interlocking plant in Lancaster pulling > levers. Or in the 1960s, when I was in college and had a part-time > job with Sears, I remember going with one of the sales people over to > the Conestoga bus garage afterwards. That man had a part-time job > on the fuel rack. He would fuel buses and then I would drive them > into the garage and park them and walk back for the next one. > Tom Meridith never had a clue.> > But I think most of us in the trolley museums today had someone out > there who favored us!> > > > On May 10, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:> > >> ----- Original Message ----> >> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>> >>> >> >> >> Here is the reply from Art Ellis on back up controls on Pittsburgh> >> interurban cars:> >> >> >> >>> The 3700 and 3800 cars both had backup controls. The> >>> 3700's could be used directly, like on 3756.> >>>> >>> On the 3800's one had to tie down the deadman handle> >>> with a wire hook (furnished).> >>> >> > This begs some questions doesn't it but I recognize since much of> > the info about back up controllers is new to all of us that answers to> > these questions will be elusive at best:> >> > Just guessing that the 'front' deadman (as same apparently didn't > > exist in the rear) was tied down when using rear controls on 38s.> >> > When did deadman controls appear on trolleys?> >> > I was under the impression that one set of handles were available > > for each trolley and were moved from end to end on DE equipment. > > Special configurations on these handles prevented someone from > > using a stick or pole to operate from the 'rear' end. This same > > method could be used for simple rear controllers and apparently was > > on the 3750s and possibly the Brills as well.> >> > Why the difference with the 38s?> >> > Were problems experienced with the 3750s that prompted this change?> >> > In reference to braking I have heard the term 'self-lapping' which > > is apparently easier to use isn't it; this prevents the lurch on > > the final stop. What does the term 'self-lapping' actually mean?> >> > PRC operators told me that on 10 and 11 series PCCs they were to > > release the brake and reapply just before the final stop to prevent > > lurching. Didn't they have self-lapping brakes? This was not true > > of subsequent orders of PCCs; 12s had spring applied brakes of > > course but 14s and 15s had wheel brake shoes didn't they. The 16s > > were delivered with drums and it would seem that the smaller > > surface area available for braking and high rpm relative to wheel > > brake shoes would over ride concerns of lurching.> >> >>>> >>> During the War (THAT one) I was on a 3800 on its way> >>> to Pittsburgh from Roscoe when a young sailor told the> >>> following: A year earlier, when he was still in high> >>> school, a group of kids were congregated in the back of> >>> the car while riding from Charleroi to Mon City to go> >>> rollerskating. As they were rolling down the hill into> >>> Black Diamond, they were surprised to see the operator> >>> standing among them.,> >>> After gasps, they asked why he was there. "Oh, you> >>> seemed to be enjoying yourselves, so I thought I'd come> >>> back and join you." Fortunately, his stay was brief,> >>> and obviously he had the car under control by the time> >>> they reached the bottom of the hill.> >> > Pardon the observation but it was a sailor so this sounds like a ' > > sea story' doesn't it. You mentioned that there was a high degree > > of professionalism among staff and management; while there was > > animosity with the unions the operators were highly professional as > > well weren't they. I was always very much impressed with this. > > This story goes against that grain of professionalism. Even > > motormen are human so it is very possible. I personally know > > someone who claims to have worked the 44/48 owl with PCCs while the > > motorman was keeping his girlfriend warm but I am a skeptic of that > > as well. It would seem highly logical to have supervisors at South > > Hills for 24-hours; certainly there were roving supervisors all night.> >> >> >>>> >>> 3700 and 3800 cars were backed out of Washington terminal> >>> using the rear controls. (With the advent of the PCCs, a> >>> local operator was assigned to ride shotgun during the> >>> backout maneuver.) When local service was discontinued, the> >>> cars looped via College St., avoiding the backup.> >>>> > Did anyone have experience at the Riverview wye? Maybe a Donora > > local would assist here.> >> >> > Phil> >> >> >> >>> While I have ridden Canonsburg trippers which wyed , I> >>> don't remember the procedure exactly. I suspect that> >>> they depended on the operator of another car to> >>> assist. During special events, such as Washington Fair,> >>> street supervision was provided. I don't know, but I> >>> suspect most of the wyeing at Donora was done in the two-> >>> man days.> >>> >> So, until the PCC cars, all of the interurbans within memory of> >> anyone living today had back up controls. That includes 3556,> >> 3700s, 3750s and 3800s.> >>>> >> >> >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________> > Be a better friend, newshound, and> > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http:// > > mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ> >> >> > 
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you.
http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_mobile_052008