[PRCo] Re: Backing interurban cars
Fred Schneider
fwschneider at comcast.net
Sat May 10 21:05:09 EDT 2008
Probably each state had it's own legislation or orders requiring (or
ignoring) safety appliances. In Pennsylvania the order required
that all cars operated by one-man required safety appliances by the
close of the calendar year 1938. I have never read the order. I
believe it was not a legislative edict but rather a general order
from the Pennsylvania Public Utilities Commission, and if that were
be so, it would have no affect at all today because the PUC has no
jurisdiction over public agencies.
Dick Steinmetz, who lived in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania, and survived
well into his 90s in the 1980s, had labored for Valley Railways in
1938 installing deadman equipment on their older cars so they could
legally continue to run them.
I suspect that there was a very large market in the 1930s in
emergency valves, deadman-heads for controllers, and air solenoids to
kick off canopy switches, and that a lot of time was spent installing
new piping on cars. Because most of the odd equipment didn't
survive, we don't know how companies rebuilt the old cars. The
1920s cars, for the most part, already had deadman controls.
Manufacturers simply built them that way. The older stuff was not
around when museums were being built, except places like Branford and
Seashore. So we don't know ... do we ... what happened in
Pennsylvania?
I some cases we simply did nothing. Conestoga Transportation
Company, in Lancaster, Pa., had a group of World War I era steel cars
with remote control that were scrapped before World War II. The kept
cars 54, 63 and 64 that had K-35 controllers until final abandonment
in 1937. The average bloke might conclude that the didn't like the
HL or PC controls on 55-62 (I forget which). That might be true.
But what was also true is that they had spent the money to apply
safety appliance to 54, 63 and 64 and not to the remote control
cars. So when 1939 dawned, they could only run those other cars if
they put a second man on them. They didn't need them so then sent
them to the fire pit and then picked up the scrap that remained.
Did all cars get M-25 or similar brake valves, like those on a Birney
car, that had the doors incorporated into the valve? No, because in
this state that wasn't part of the law. So you also did not need
that part of the emergency valve that was connected to the emergency
part of the brake valve. Any valve worked.
I suspect that, without even reading the PUC order, that back up
controls were exempt. Why? Because 3756 does not have a deadman
on the back up controller. Logically, back up controls were used
only for switching moves when no one but employees were on the car.
Another clue is Art's statement that you could back a 3800 by hooking
the deadman down on a those cars. Ah, two different types of back
up controllers. The one on 3756 has all 10 points connected to the
resistors ... you notch through points 1 to 5 in series and 6-10 in
parallel. Of course only a fool is going to back pole a car at 40
mph, but you could do it. But he has told us (and you need to
interpret from his statements) that the back up controller on a 3800
was nothing more than an on-off switch. You hooked the dead-man
down up front and then turned the controls on and off from the rear.
Go see the single-end Snelling Shops built wooden car that the
Minneapolis Trolley Museums runs on their line at Lake Calhoun in
Minneapolis in the summer months and you can watch a similar scheme
being used.
What I say next has been here before. One of the more curious
installations was the one on West Penn 280s and 700s (and 212 and
204). West Penn told the PUC that it was impossible on their cars
because they had no air and the PUC told West Penn to figure a way
and do it anyway. The result was a small electric motor mounted
under the front of the car with a right angle drive to the bottom of
the controller shaft. If you took your hand off the button on their
controllers, it notched them back through back to the full brake
position. Of course someone on the car needed to have the presence
of mind to wind up the hand brake or the car was still going to run
away at 10 mph if it was on a grade.
Donora Wye was a lovely example of PRC doing things on the cheap.
It was only a wye coming from Pittsburgh but a loop from the south.
Why tear up the street and put in two more switches if you are only
going to use it for one Riverview tripper in the afternoon? Let the
operator make enough noise with the gong and hope no one gets in the
way!!!!!!!! Perhaps they used the Donora local motorman because at
that time of the day the Donora cars were extended through
Monongahela to Riverview loop.
Pittsburgh was no averse to backing PCC cars into our out of wyes.
Remember, they did it all they time at Dormont until 42 and 38 were
combined in 1963 and they did it for eons at Wilmerding until a loop
was finally built for 87 cars. I can't find that in the route cards
because it was after World War II ... the wye was still used when my
mentor in this hobby, John Seibert, photographed a 4800 in it in
1949. St. Louis Public Service wyed the PCCs at the end of the
University-Clayton line in Clayton, Missouri, until that line was
abandoned circa 1963, but, in deference to them, that wye was on
private right-of-way a block from the nearest city street and across
a private bridge from the nearest street.
Professionalism? Every company has its idiots. If you have 3000
or 4000 employees, even 5% duds is 150 to 200 people. We all know
those stories. I love the one about keeping the girl friend warm.
I've run a McKinney Avenue car the whole length of the line in Dallas
on a Sunday evening and so has Ed Lybarger. I've run a Toronto Witt
on the streets and 1707 in Pittsburgh on 38-A and on route 56. I've
motored a Silverliner on the Pennsy mainline all the way from
Harrisburg to Lancaster on evening on the way home from work (in that
case the engineman has since retired).
Donald Duke, the man who owns Golden West Books, had a lovely
story. Turns out that A. O. Smith, the president of Pacific
Electric was a card playing buddy of Don's father, Norman Duke. One
night when Smith was over at the house in San Marino, he asked Duke,
"Do you know what Donny has been doing in the evenings?" Well it
turns out that Smith got onto a Glendora local one night and inquired
who was running the car? Seems that both the motorman and the
conductor were back in the car. The motorman was studying for his
college courses. Don knew that and took advantage. Every night we
would go up to meet that car after dinner and spell the motorman and
make a round trip to the end of the line on an 1100.
I guess that was no different that me spending my evenings in the
summer of 1957 in CORK interlocking plant in Lancaster pulling
levers. Or in the 1960s, when I was in college and had a part-time
job with Sears, I remember going with one of the sales people over to
the Conestoga bus garage afterwards. That man had a part-time job
on the fuel rack. He would fuel buses and then I would drive them
into the garage and park them and walk back for the next one.
Tom Meridith never had a clue.
But I think most of us in the trolley museums today had someone out
there who favored us!
On May 10, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Phillip Clark Campbell wrote:
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>
>>
>
>
>> Here is the reply from Art Ellis on back up controls on Pittsburgh
>> interurban cars:
>
>
>
>>> The 3700 and 3800 cars both had backup controls. The
>>> 3700's could be used directly, like on 3756.
>>>
>>> On the 3800's one had to tie down the deadman handle
>>> with a wire hook (furnished).
>>
>
> This begs some questions doesn't it but I recognize since much of
> the info about back up controllers is new to all of us that answers to
> these questions will be elusive at best:
>
> Just guessing that the 'front' deadman (as same apparently didn't
> exist in the rear) was tied down when using rear controls on 38s.
>
> When did deadman controls appear on trolleys?
>
> I was under the impression that one set of handles were available
> for each trolley and were moved from end to end on DE equipment.
> Special configurations on these handles prevented someone from
> using a stick or pole to operate from the 'rear' end. This same
> method could be used for simple rear controllers and apparently was
> on the 3750s and possibly the Brills as well.
>
> Why the difference with the 38s?
>
> Were problems experienced with the 3750s that prompted this change?
>
> In reference to braking I have heard the term 'self-lapping' which
> is apparently easier to use isn't it; this prevents the lurch on
> the final stop. What does the term 'self-lapping' actually mean?
>
> PRC operators told me that on 10 and 11 series PCCs they were to
> release the brake and reapply just before the final stop to prevent
> lurching. Didn't they have self-lapping brakes? This was not true
> of subsequent orders of PCCs; 12s had spring applied brakes of
> course but 14s and 15s had wheel brake shoes didn't they. The 16s
> were delivered with drums and it would seem that the smaller
> surface area available for braking and high rpm relative to wheel
> brake shoes would over ride concerns of lurching.
>
>>>
>>> During the War (THAT one) I was on a 3800 on its way
>>> to Pittsburgh from Roscoe when a young sailor told the
>>> following: A year earlier, when he was still in high
>>> school, a group of kids were congregated in the back of
>>> the car while riding from Charleroi to Mon City to go
>>> rollerskating. As they were rolling down the hill into
>>> Black Diamond, they were surprised to see the operator
>>> standing among them.,
>>> After gasps, they asked why he was there. "Oh, you
>>> seemed to be enjoying yourselves, so I thought I'd come
>>> back and join you." Fortunately, his stay was brief,
>>> and obviously he had the car under control by the time
>>> they reached the bottom of the hill.
>
> Pardon the observation but it was a sailor so this sounds like a '
> sea story' doesn't it. You mentioned that there was a high degree
> of professionalism among staff and management; while there was
> animosity with the unions the operators were highly professional as
> well weren't they. I was always very much impressed with this.
> This story goes against that grain of professionalism. Even
> motormen are human so it is very possible. I personally know
> someone who claims to have worked the 44/48 owl with PCCs while the
> motorman was keeping his girlfriend warm but I am a skeptic of that
> as well. It would seem highly logical to have supervisors at South
> Hills for 24-hours; certainly there were roving supervisors all night.
>
>
>>>
>>> 3700 and 3800 cars were backed out of Washington terminal
>>> using the rear controls. (With the advent of the PCCs, a
>>> local operator was assigned to ride shotgun during the
>>> backout maneuver.) When local service was discontinued, the
>>> cars looped via College St., avoiding the backup.
>>>
> Did anyone have experience at the Riverview wye? Maybe a Donora
> local would assist here.
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>>> While I have ridden Canonsburg trippers which wyed , I
>>> don't remember the procedure exactly. I suspect that
>>> they depended on the operator of another car to
>>> assist. During special events, such as Washington Fair,
>>> street supervision was provided. I don't know, but I
>>> suspect most of the wyeing at Donora was done in the two-
>>> man days.
>>
>> So, until the PCC cars, all of the interurbans within memory of
>> anyone living today had back up controls. That includes 3556,
>> 3700s, 3750s and 3800s.
>>>
>
>
>
>
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