[PRCo] Re: SE DE
Fred Schneider
fwschneider at comcast.net
Mon May 19 10:54:56 EDT 2008
To my knowledge, John, Northeastern was the only place using Type 5s
at that time.
On May 19, 2008, at 7:55 AM, John Swindler wrote:
>
> Maybe another consideration was the operation of short-turn
> service. It was mentioned that Boston bought the Dallas PCC cars
> to replace Type 5s short turning at Northeastern Univ.(?) and maybe
> there were many other such locations. They used loops where the
> lines terminated at a subway station. BSRA reprinted a number of
> Boston maps quite a few years ago. Will have to check if any are
> track maps. Unfortunately basement only marginally organzed, and
> luck plays a big factor in finding stuff.
>
> John
>
>> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 14:53:34 -0400> From: allmanr at verizon.net>
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> >
>> John-Boston Type 5's came late, but the Center Entrance cars, Type
>> 4's and > Type 3's also double ended. RICH> ----- Original Message
>> ----- > From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> To:
>> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008
>> 2:26 PM> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > > Chicago is the one that
>> I was wondering about. There was generally no > > reversing
>> anywhere near the loop, but there were some long, heavy > > north-
>> south routes. Maybe I can find a old track map from 1920s to see >
>> > what sort of terminal facilities existed at some of these
>> terminals.> >> > The Dallas PCC cars that went to Boston were to
>> replace Type 5s used as > > sort-turns near the subway portals.
>> This is a vague recollection that > > needs verified.> >> > Maybe
>> another question might be who was buying double end equipment for
>> > > trunk route s!
> ervice in the 1920s??? Brooklyn had several hundred, and the > >
> Boston Type 5s came rather late in the game. But I can not recall
> ever > > seeing any pix of 5-6 cars waiting to reverse ends in a
> large city??> >> > John> >> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:36:37 -0400>
> From: allmanr at verizon.net> > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> To:
> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > just > >> occurred to me that
> several huge systems used predominantly double > > >> enders, costs
> and lost seating capacity aside:Boston-pre-PCC 100%-despite > >> >
> loops on most lines(and btw, also post-PCC), Chicago(many outer
> routes > >> > lacked loops), Brooklyn, Third Avenue, Baltimore,
> LARwys; San > >> Francisco, > Washington DC> ----- Original Message
> ----- > From: "John > >> Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> To: >
> >> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008
> 9:54 AM> > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > > But I grew up in Pgh
> late 50s and early > >> 60s, Fred, so the gas stations > > sprou!
> ting up in the loop terminals is > >> a remembrance. Things like >
> > B
> irmingham and Vera Cruz converting HL > >> cars to K controller and
> to single > > end operation involved 'noted in > >> passing' while
> reading magazines.> >> > Hard to think who else might have > >>
> converted double end car!> > s to single end > > 'Peter Witt'
> operation other then Birmingham. Didn't > > Baltimore have > >
> mostly DE cars until the PCCs, but still had loops at > > most
> terminals? And > > most routes 'through-routed' to avoid downtown >
> > terminals. And Mitten > > management bought 1500 nearside cars
> around > > 1912, but a lot of routes were > > on parallel streets.
> And didnt' Red > > Arrow converted 69th St. terminal > > from stub
> to loop at some point but > > kept the stub terminals at outer ends?
> > >> > You could almost claim that > > all large cities eventually
> went to single end > > operation, and then > > note the exceptions.
> And why would the large cities > > do this but not > > the
> Lancasters? As Russ, Herb and I have been claiming: > > headways.
> And > >!
> this was a lesson lost on MUNI management by 1970s.> >> > That
> was the > > major consideration pushing this issue. Just about > >
> everything else was > > secondary.> >> > John> >> >> >> From:
> fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: > > [PRCo] Re: SE DE> Date: Sat,
> 17 > >> May 2008 18!> > :02:51 -0400> To: pittsburgh-
> railways at dementia.org> > Not sure > >> ho> > w many places
> converted DE to SE. Pittsburgh did. > Birmingham might > >> > >
> have. I never paid much attention to what was > happening in Vera
> Cruz. > > > >> You're right about management not > caring ... but
> they do care if it > > > >> means you can cut cars out of a >
> schedule or if cars back up or if > > > >> politicians complain
> because of the > problem. Come on John ... gas > > > >> stations
> were not issues when we > made those changes ... Pittsburgh > > >
> >> leased a lot of loops for gas > stations but that was late in
> the game > > > >> and had nothing to do with the > earlier years.
> You will also recall > > how > >!
>> the city reacted to PRC > doing that ... "How dare you make money >
>> doing > >> that!!!!!!!"> > On May 17, 2008, at 5:06 PM, John
>> Swindler > > wrote:> > >> > >> >> > Switch points and frogs needed
>> for stub terminals, > > but not needed > > >> > for a loop.
>> Although it is nice to have a siding > > at a loop.>!> > >> >
>> Also, with a loop, if large enough, the center part > > can be
>> leased > > > > for a gas s!> > tation. Pirl St. comes to mind, but
>> won't swear to it.> >> > > > And > > management doesn't care if
>> the motorman has to "lug" handles, > > > > > > farebox and
>> supplies to the other end. They do care if cars back > > up > > >
>> > because of scheduled headway and congestion at the terminal.> >>
>> > > > Didnt' > > Vera Cruz shop double end cars to convert to
>> single end? > > > > Likewise > > Birmingham?> > John> >> >> From:
>> fwschneider at comcast.net> > > Subject: [PRCo] > > Re: SE DE> Date:
>> > >> Sat, 17 May 2008 15:03:05 -0400> > > To: pittsburgh- > > > >>
>> railways at dementia.org> > A lot of reasons for > > single-end > >>
>> > > equipment:> > 1) you!
> can put more people in more > > seats. Depending > >> on > > how
> wide the > center doors are or whether or > > not there are > >>
> center > > doors, a single- > end car will seat 9 to 23 > > more
> people > >> than a > > double-end car. > Therefore you have more >
> > happy customers.> > >> > 2) > > Happy customers produce more
> revenue.> > > > 3) Seats cost le!> > ss > >> than additional
> controls, !> > wiring, air brake > piping and hand> >> >> brake
> rigging.> > 4) Turn a> > round time at the ends of lines using > >>
> > >> >> single end equipment > > > is shorter than that required
> for double- > >> > >> >> end equipment. The > > > operator doesn't
> have to lug the handles, > >> > >> >> money changer, > > his
> supplies > and the fare box to the other end of > > >> >> >> the
> car > > and flip all those > blankety-blank seats. You can go > >>
> > >> >> through > > a loop, fill in the day > card, and be out in
> 30 seconds. > >> > >> >> The > > double end car will require >
> several mi!> > !
> nutes. So single end > >> >> > > cars on a line might save a car or >
> two in > > the rush hour and > >> >> > > that, in today's dollars
> is $2 million for > an > > articulated or > >> >> > > about $1
> million for a single car.> > 5) Traffic > > congestion favors > > >
> >> >> single end equipment because you can > turn it on > > private
> > >> > > >> property.> > Working against it and in favor of the
> double- > > end > > > >> >> cars you already have:> > 1) loops,
> either on private property > > > > or > >> >> around city streets !
> > > cost > money. Special work is incredibly > > > >> >> costly to
> fabricate. > > ("Spec!> > ial > work" is the term used for track >
> > frogs and switch > > points. It is > > > usually a manganese
> steel which is > > much harder and > > more durable than > > >
> ordinary carbon-steel.)> > 2) > > If you build the > > loop on
> private > > property, the real estate costs > > > money. If there >
> > is already a house > > there, it costs money to > > > demolish
> it, fill in > > the basement and level > > the property.> > 3) If >
> > you!
> have a large > > fleet of undepreciated and not > > fully >
> amortized > > double-cars, you > > really don't want to write them
> off > > and > buy ne!> > w single-end cars > > if you can you don't
> have to. You also > > > don't want> > to spend the > > money
> shopping those double-end cars to > > > convert them > > into > >
> single-end cars if you don't have to because that > > > costs > >
> money.> > > > 4) Stockholders don't like you spending their money
> on > > > > things > > you > don't need.> > 5) When I say dou!> >
> ble-end cars you > > > > already have, remember that > everyone
> alread> > y had double-end cars. > > > > That is the way the
> industry > start!> > > > ed.> > 6) You can also turn > > double-end
> cars on a spur onto private> > > > property > but once you have > >
> the land for a spur, you might as well > > > > take > advantage of
> items i, > > 2, 3 and 4 in the first section.> > And > > > > then
> there is the narrow > > versus wide streets issue.> > Finally > >
> there > !
>> is the status quo > > issue. Every business is filled > with > > peo
> ple whose > > mentality > > favors "we've always done it that way
> and > > > we should > > continue to > > do so" regardless of
> whether or not it makes > > > any sense > > at all.> > > > > On May
> 17, 2008, at 2:38 PM, Phillip > > Clark Campbell > > wrote:> > > >
> > ----- Original Message ----> >> From: > > John Swindler > > > >
> <j_swindler at hotmail.co!> > m>> >> To: > > pittsburgh-
> railways at dementia.org> >> > > Sent: Saturday, > > May 17, 2008 > >
> 8:34:55 AM> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > >>> >>> >> > > Ah,
> Fred,> >> > > Russ Jackson told us a very valid reason for > > l!>
> > arge > > cities to go to > >> single end> >> equipment, and Ed
> Tennyson > > > > has > > told us about the 1700 series > >>
> interurban> >> purchase.> >>> > > > > >> > > Russ' stories about
> MUNI also says a !> > lot about the Third > > Ave. Ry. > > > >>
> route> >> structure in Manhattan.> > > >> > > > Mr.Swindler!> >> >
> > > ....And those stories are?> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >
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