[PRCo] Re: SE DE
Richard Allman
allmanr at verizon.net
Mon May 19 19:38:16 EDT 2008
correct!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Schneider" <fwschneider at comcast.net>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 10:54 AM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE
> To my knowledge, John, Northeastern was the only place using Type 5s
> at that time.
>
> On May 19, 2008, at 7:55 AM, John Swindler wrote:
>
>>
>> Maybe another consideration was the operation of short-turn
>> service. It was mentioned that Boston bought the Dallas PCC cars
>> to replace Type 5s short turning at Northeastern Univ.(?) and maybe
>> there were many other such locations. They used loops where the
>> lines terminated at a subway station. BSRA reprinted a number of
>> Boston maps quite a few years ago. Will have to check if any are
>> track maps. Unfortunately basement only marginally organzed, and
>> luck plays a big factor in finding stuff.
>>
>> John
>>
>>> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 14:53:34 -0400> From: allmanr at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> >
>>> John-Boston Type 5's came late, but the Center Entrance cars, Type
>>> 4's and > Type 3's also double ended. RICH> ----- Original Message
>>> ----- > From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> To:
>>> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008
>>> 2:26 PM> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > > Chicago is the one that
>>> I was wondering about. There was generally no > > reversing
>>> anywhere near the loop, but there were some long, heavy > > north-
>>> south routes. Maybe I can find a old track map from 1920s to see >
>>> > what sort of terminal facilities existed at some of these
>>> terminals.> >> > The Dallas PCC cars that went to Boston were to
>>> replace Type 5s used as > > sort-turns near the subway portals.
>>> This is a vague recollection that > > needs verified.> >> > Maybe
>>> another question might be who was buying double end equipment for
>>> > > trunk route s!
>> ervice in the 1920s??? Brooklyn had several hundred, and the > >
>> Boston Type 5s came rather late in the game. But I can not recall
>> ever > > seeing any pix of 5-6 cars waiting to reverse ends in a
>> large city??> >> > John> >> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:36:37 -0400>
>> From: allmanr at verizon.net> > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> To:
>> pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > just > >> occurred to me that
>> several huge systems used predominantly double > > >> enders, costs
>> and lost seating capacity aside:Boston-pre-PCC 100%-despite > >> >
>> loops on most lines(and btw, also post-PCC), Chicago(many outer
>> routes > >> > lacked loops), Brooklyn, Third Avenue, Baltimore,
>> LARwys; San > >> Francisco, > Washington DC> ----- Original Message
>> ----- > From: "John > >> Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> To: >
>> >> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008
>> 9:54 AM> > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > > But I grew up in Pgh
>> late 50s and early > >> 60s, Fred, so the gas stations > > sprou!
>> ting up in the loop terminals is > >> a remembrance. Things like >
>> > B
>> irmingham and Vera Cruz converting HL > >> cars to K controller and
>> to single > > end operation involved 'noted in > >> passing' while
>> reading magazines.> >> > Hard to think who else might have > >>
>> converted double end car!> > s to single end > > 'Peter Witt'
>> operation other then Birmingham. Didn't > > Baltimore have > >
>> mostly DE cars until the PCCs, but still had loops at > > most
>> terminals? And > > most routes 'through-routed' to avoid downtown >
>> > terminals. And Mitten > > management bought 1500 nearside cars
>> around > > 1912, but a lot of routes were > > on parallel streets.
>> And didnt' Red > > Arrow converted 69th St. terminal > > from stub
>> to loop at some point but > > kept the stub terminals at outer ends?
>> > >> > You could almost claim that > > all large cities eventually
>> went to single end > > operation, and then > > note the exceptions.
>> And why would the large cities > > do this but not > > the
>> Lancasters? As Russ, Herb and I have been claiming: > > headways.
>> And > >!
>> this was a lesson lost on MUNI management by 1970s.> >> > That
>> was the > > major consideration pushing this issue. Just about > >
>> everything else was > > secondary.> >> > John> >> >> >> From:
>> fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: > > [PRCo] Re: SE DE> Date: Sat,
>> 17 > >> May 2008 18!> > :02:51 -0400> To: pittsburgh-
>> railways at dementia.org> > Not sure > >> ho> > w many places
>> converted DE to SE. Pittsburgh did. > Birmingham might > >> > >
>> have. I never paid much attention to what was > happening in Vera
>> Cruz. > > > >> You're right about management not > caring ... but
>> they do care if it > > > >> means you can cut cars out of a >
>> schedule or if cars back up or if > > > >> politicians complain
>> because of the > problem. Come on John ... gas > > > >> stations
>> were not issues when we > made those changes ... Pittsburgh > > >
>> >> leased a lot of loops for gas > stations but that was late in
>> the game > > > >> and had nothing to do with the > earlier years.
>> You will also recall > > how > >!
>>> the city reacted to PRC > doing that ... "How dare you make money >
>>> doing > >> that!!!!!!!"> > On May 17, 2008, at 5:06 PM, John
>>> Swindler > > wrote:> > >> > >> >> > Switch points and frogs needed
>>> for stub terminals, > > but not needed > > >> > for a loop.
>>> Although it is nice to have a siding > > at a loop.>!> > >> >
>>> Also, with a loop, if large enough, the center part > > can be
>>> leased > > > > for a gas s!> > tation. Pirl St. comes to mind, but
>>> won't swear to it.> >> > > > And > > management doesn't care if
>>> the motorman has to "lug" handles, > > > > > > farebox and
>>> supplies to the other end. They do care if cars back > > up > > >
>>> > because of scheduled headway and congestion at the terminal.> >>
>>> > > > Didnt' > > Vera Cruz shop double end cars to convert to
>>> single end? > > > > Likewise > > Birmingham?> > John> >> >> From:
>>> fwschneider at comcast.net> > > Subject: [PRCo] > > Re: SE DE> Date:
>>> > >> Sat, 17 May 2008 15:03:05 -0400> > > To: pittsburgh- > > > >>
>>> railways at dementia.org> > A lot of reasons for > > single-end > >>
>>> > > equipment:> > 1) you!
>> can put more people in more > > seats. Depending > >> on > > how
>> wide the > center doors are or whether or > > not there are > >>
>> center > > doors, a single- > end car will seat 9 to 23 > > more
>> people > >> than a > > double-end car. > Therefore you have more >
>> > happy customers.> > >> > 2) > > Happy customers produce more
>> revenue.> > > > 3) Seats cost le!> > ss > >> than additional
>> controls, !> > wiring, air brake > piping and hand> >> >> brake
>> rigging.> > 4) Turn a> > round time at the ends of lines using > >>
>> > >> >> single end equipment > > > is shorter than that required
>> for double- > >> > >> >> end equipment. The > > > operator doesn't
>> have to lug the handles, > >> > >> >> money changer, > > his
>> supplies > and the fare box to the other end of > > >> >> >> the
>> car > > and flip all those > blankety-blank seats. You can go > >>
>> > >> >> through > > a loop, fill in the day > card, and be out in
>> 30 seconds. > >> > >> >> The > > double end car will require >
>> several mi!> > !
>> nutes. So single end > >> >> > > cars on a line might save a car or >
>> two in > > the rush hour and > >> >> > > that, in today's dollars
>> is $2 million for > an > > articulated or > >> >> > > about $1
>> million for a single car.> > 5) Traffic > > congestion favors > > >
>> >> >> single end equipment because you can > turn it on > > private
>> > >> > > >> property.> > Working against it and in favor of the
>> double- > > end > > > >> >> cars you already have:> > 1) loops,
>> either on private property > > > > or > >> >> around city streets !
>> > > cost > money. Special work is incredibly > > > >> >> costly to
>> fabricate. > > ("Spec!> > ial > work" is the term used for track >
>> > frogs and switch > > points. It is > > > usually a manganese
>> steel which is > > much harder and > > more durable than > > >
>> ordinary carbon-steel.)> > 2) > > If you build the > > loop on
>> private > > property, the real estate costs > > > money. If there >
>> > is already a house > > there, it costs money to > > > demolish
>> it, fill in > > the basement and level > > the property.> > 3) If >
>> > you!
>> have a large > > fleet of undepreciated and not > > fully >
>> amortized > > double-cars, you > > really don't want to write them
>> off > > and > buy ne!> > w single-end cars > > if you can you don't
>> have to. You also > > > don't want> > to spend the > > money
>> shopping those double-end cars to > > > convert them > > into > >
>> single-end cars if you don't have to because that > > > costs > >
>> money.> > > > 4) Stockholders don't like you spending their money
>> on > > > > things > > you > don't need.> > 5) When I say dou!> >
>> ble-end cars you > > > > already have, remember that > everyone
>> alread> > y had double-end cars. > > > > That is the way the
>> industry > start!> > > > ed.> > 6) You can also turn > > double-end
>> cars on a spur onto private> > > > property > but once you have > >
>> the land for a spur, you might as well > > > > take > advantage of
>> items i, > > 2, 3 and 4 in the first section.> > And > > > > then
>> there is the narrow > > versus wide streets issue.> > Finally > >
>> there > !
>>> is the status quo > > issue. Every business is filled > with > > peo
>> ple whose > > mentality > > favors "we've always done it that way
>> and > > > we should > > continue to > > do so" regardless of
>> whether or not it makes > > > any sense > > at all.> > > > > On May
>> 17, 2008, at 2:38 PM, Phillip > > Clark Campbell > > wrote:> > > >
>> > ----- Original Message ----> >> From: > > John Swindler > > > >
>> <j_swindler at hotmail.co!> > m>> >> To: > > pittsburgh-
>> railways at dementia.org> >> > > Sent: Saturday, > > May 17, 2008 > >
>> 8:34:55 AM> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > >>> >>> >> > > Ah,
>> Fred,> >> > > Russ Jackson told us a very valid reason for > > l!>
>> > arge > > cities to go to > >> single end> >> equipment, and Ed
>> Tennyson > > > > has > > told us about the 1700 series > >>
>> interurban> >> purchase.> >>> > > > > >> > > Russ' stories about
>> MUNI also says a !> > lot about the Third > > Ave. Ry. > > > >>
>> route> >> structure in Manhattan.> > > >> > > > Mr.Swindler!> >> >
>> > > ....And those stories are?> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >
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