[PRCo] Re: SE DE

Mon May 19 19:37:39 EDT 2008

John-only short turns without loops after the arrival of the Dallas cars 
were Northeastern, rarely @ Brigham Circle on Arborway, and rarely @ 
Blandford Street( I THINK) @ portal of Commonwealth Avenue. RICH

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>
To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 7:55 AM
Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE

>
> Maybe another consideration was the operation of short-turn service.  It 
> was mentioned that Boston bought the Dallas PCC cars to replace Type 5s 
> short turning at Northeastern Univ.(?) and maybe there were many other 
> such locations.  They used loops where the lines terminated at a subway 
> station.  BSRA reprinted a number of Boston maps quite a few years ago. 
> Will have to check if any are track maps. Unfortunately basement only 
> marginally organzed, and luck plays a big factor in finding stuff.
>
> John
>
>> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 14:53:34 -0400> From: allmanr at verizon.net> 
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > 
>> John-Boston Type 5's came late, but the Center Entrance cars, Type 4's 
>> and > Type 3's also double ended. RICH> ----- Original Message ----- > 
>> From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> To: 
>> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 2:26 PM> 
>> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > > Chicago is the one that I was wondering 
>> about. There was generally no > > reversing anywhere near the loop, but 
>> there were some long, heavy > > north-south routes. Maybe I can find a 
>> old track map from 1920s to see > > what sort of terminal facilities 
>> existed at some of these terminals.> >> > The Dallas PCC cars that went 
>> to Boston were to replace Type 5s used as > > sort-turns near the subway 
>> portals. This is a vague recollection that > > needs verified.> >> > 
>> Maybe another question might be who was buying double end equipment for > 
>>  > trunk route s!
> ervice in the 1920s??? Brooklyn had several hundred, and the > > Boston 
> Type 5s came rather late in the game. But I can not recall ever > > seeing 
> any pix of 5-6 cars waiting to reverse ends in a large city??> >> > John> 
>  >> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:36:37 -0400> From: allmanr at verizon.net> > >> 
> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > just > 
>  >> occurred to me that several huge systems used predominantly double > > 
>  >> enders, costs and lost seating capacity aside:Boston-pre-PCC 
> 100%-despite > >> > loops on most lines(and btw, also post-PCC), 
> Chicago(many outer routes > >> > lacked loops), Brooklyn, Third Avenue, 
> Baltimore, LARwys; San > >> Francisco, > Washington DC> ----- Original 
> Message ----- > From: "John > >> Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> To: > 
>  >> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:54 AM> 
>  > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > > But I grew up in Pgh late 50s and 
> early > >> 60s, Fred, so the gas stations > > sprou!
> ting up in the loop terminals is > >> a remembrance. Things like > > B
> irmingham and Vera Cruz converting HL > >> cars to K controller and to 
> single > > end operation involved 'noted in > >> passing' while reading 
> magazines.> >> > Hard to think who else might have > >> converted double 
> end car!> > s to single end > > 'Peter Witt' operation other then 
> Birmingham. Didn't > > Baltimore have > > mostly DE cars until the PCCs, 
> but still had loops at > > most terminals? And > > most routes 
> 'through-routed' to avoid downtown > > terminals. And Mitten > > 
> management bought 1500 nearside cars around > > 1912, but a lot of routes 
> were > > on parallel streets. And didnt' Red > > Arrow converted 69th St. 
> terminal > > from stub to loop at some point but > > kept the stub 
> terminals at outer ends?> >> > You could almost claim that > > all large 
> cities eventually went to single end > > operation, and then > > note the 
> exceptions. And why would the large cities > > do this but not > > the 
> Lancasters? As Russ, Herb and I have been claiming: > > headways. And > >!
>  this was a lesson lost on MUNI management by 1970s.> >> > That was the > 
>  > major consideration pushing this issue. Just about > > everything else 
> was > > secondary.> >> > John> >> >> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> 
> Subject: > > [PRCo] Re: SE DE> Date: Sat, 17 > >> May 2008 18!> > 
> :02:51 -0400> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > Not sure > >> ho> > 
> w many places converted DE to SE. Pittsburgh did. > Birmingham might > >> 
>  > > have. I never paid much attention to what was > happening in Vera 
> Cruz. > > > >> You're right about management not > caring ... but they do 
> care if it > > > >> means you can cut cars out of a > schedule or if cars 
> back up or if > > > >> politicians complain because of the > problem. Come 
> on John ... gas > > > >> stations were not issues when we > made those 
> changes ... Pittsburgh > > > >> leased a lot of loops for gas > stations 
> but that was late in the game > > > >> and had nothing to do with the > 
> earlier years. You will also recall > > how > >!
> > the city reacted to PRC > doing that ... "How dare you make money >
>> doing > >> that!!!!!!!"> > On May 17, 2008, at 5:06 PM, John Swindler > > 
>> wrote:> > >> > >> >> > Switch points and frogs needed for stub terminals, 
>>  > > but not needed > > >> > for a loop. Although it is nice to have a 
>> siding > > at a loop.>!> > >> > Also, with a loop, if large enough, the 
>> center part > > can be leased > > > > for a gas s!> > tation. Pirl St. 
>> comes to mind, but won't swear to it.> >> > > > And > > management 
>> doesn't care if the motorman has to "lug" handles, > > > > > > farebox 
>> and supplies to the other end. They do care if cars back > > up > > > > 
>> because of scheduled headway and congestion at the terminal.> >> > > > 
>> Didnt' > > Vera Cruz shop double end cars to convert to single end? > > > 
>>  > Likewise > > Birmingham?> > John> >> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> 
>>  > > Subject: [PRCo] > > Re: SE DE> Date: > >> Sat, 17 May 2008 
>> 15:03:05 -0400> > > To: pittsburgh- > > > >> railways at dementia.org> > A 
>> lot of reasons for > > single-end > >> > > equipment:> > 1) you!
>  can put more people in more > > seats. Depending > >> on > > how wide the 
>  > center doors are or whether or > > not there are > >> center > > doors, 
> a single- > end car will seat 9 to 23 > > more people > >> than a > > 
> double-end car. > Therefore you have more > > happy customers.> > >> > 2) 
>  > > Happy customers produce more revenue.> > > > 3) Seats cost le!> > ss > 
>  >> than additional controls, !> > wiring, air brake > piping and hand> >> 
>  >> brake rigging.> > 4) Turn a> > round time at the ends of lines using > 
>  >> > >> >> single end equipment > > > is shorter than that required for 
> double- > >> > >> >> end equipment. The > > > operator doesn't have to lug 
> the handles, > >> > >> >> money changer, > > his supplies > and the fare 
> box to the other end of > > >> >> >> the car > > and flip all those > 
> blankety-blank seats. You can go > >> > >> >> through > > a loop, fill in 
> the day > card, and be out in 30 seconds. > >> > >> >> The > > double end 
> car will require > several mi!> > !
> nutes. So single end > >> >> > > cars on a line might save a car or >
> two in > > the rush hour and > >> >> > > that, in today's dollars is $2 
> million for > an > > articulated or > >> >> > > about $1 million for a 
> single car.> > 5) Traffic > > congestion favors > > > >> >> single end 
> equipment because you can > turn it on > > private > >> > > >> property.> 
>  > Working against it and in favor of the double- > > end > > > >> >> cars 
> you already have:> > 1) loops, either on private property > > > > or > >> 
>  >> around city streets !> > cost > money. Special work is incredibly > > > 
>  >> >> costly to fabricate. > > ("Spec!> > ial > work" is the term used for 
> track > > frogs and switch > > points. It is > > > usually a manganese 
> steel which is > > much harder and > > more durable than > > > ordinary 
> carbon-steel.)> > 2) > > If you build the > > loop on private > > 
> property, the real estate costs > > > money. If there > > is already a 
> house > > there, it costs money to > > > demolish it, fill in > > the 
> basement and level > > the property.> > 3) If > > you!
>  have a large > > fleet of undepreciated and not > > fully > amortized > > 
> double-cars, you > > really don't want to write them off > > and > buy 
> ne!> > w single-end cars > > if you can you don't have to. You also > > > 
> don't want> > to spend the > > money shopping those double-end cars to > > 
>  > convert them > > into > > single-end cars if you don't have to because 
> that > > > costs > > money.> > > > 4) Stockholders don't like you spending 
> their money on > > > > things > > you > don't need.> > 5) When I say dou!> 
>  > ble-end cars you > > > > already have, remember that > everyone alread> 
>  > y had double-end cars. > > > > That is the way the industry > start!> > 
>  > > ed.> > 6) You can also turn > > double-end cars on a spur onto 
> private> > > > property > but once you have > > the land for a spur, you 
> might as well > > > > take > advantage of items i, > > 2, 3 and 4 in the 
> first section.> > And > > > > then there is the narrow > > versus wide 
> streets issue.> > Finally > > there > !
> > is the status quo > > issue. Every business is filled > with > > peo
> ple whose > > mentality > > favors "we've always done it that way and > > 
>  > we should > > continue to > > do so" regardless of whether or not it 
> makes > > > any sense > > at all.> > > > > On May 17, 2008, at 2:38 PM, 
> Phillip > > Clark Campbell > > wrote:> > > > > ----- Original 
> Message ----> >> From: > > John Swindler > > > > <j_swindler at hotmail.co!> 
>  > m>> >> To: > > pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> >> > > Sent: Saturday, 
>  > > May 17, 2008 > > 8:34:55 AM> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > >>> >>> 
>  >> > > Ah, Fred,> >> > > Russ Jackson told us a very valid reason for > > 
> l!> > arge > > cities to go to > >> single end> >> equipment, and Ed 
> Tennyson > > > > has > > told us about the 1700 series > >> interurban> >> 
> purchase.> >>> > > > > >> > > Russ' stories about MUNI also says a !> > 
> lot about the Third > > Ave. Ry. > > > >> route> >> structure in 
> Manhattan.> > > >> > > > Mr.Swindler!> >> > > > ....And those stories 
> are?> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >> > _________________________!
> ________________________________________> > > > > > Change the world with 
> e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.> > > > > > 
> http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx? > > > > > > 
> source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld> >> > >> > > > 
> _________________________________________________________________> > > > 
> E-mail for the greater good. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.> > > 
>  > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ > > > > 
> GreaterGood> >> > > >> > 
> _________________________________________________________________> > Keep 
> your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.> > 
> http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008> 
>  >> > > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.
> http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ MakeCount
>
> 