[PRCo] Re: SE DE

Tue May 20 09:15:40 EDT 2008

Thank you, Rich.  Thought there might have been a couple turn-backs, but clueless as to locations and operating practices.

John

> Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 19:37:39 -0400> From: allmanr at verizon.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > John-only short turns without loops after the arrival of the Dallas cars > were Northeastern, rarely @ Brigham Circle on Arborway, and rarely @ > Blandford Street( I THINK) @ portal of Commonwealth Avenue. RICH> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> To: <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 7:55 AM> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > >> > Maybe another consideration was the operation of short-turn service. It > > was mentioned that Boston bought the Dallas PCC cars to replace Type 5s > > short turning at Northeastern Univ.(?) and maybe there were many other > > such locations. They used loops where the lines terminated at a subway > > station. BSRA reprinted a number of Boston maps quite a few years ago. > > Will have to check if any are track maps. Unfortunately basement only > > marginally organzed, and luck plays a big factor in finding stuff.> >> > John> >> >> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 14:53:34 -0400> From: allmanr at verizon.net> > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > > >> John-Boston Type 5's came late, but the Center Entrance cars, Type 4's > >> and > Type 3's also double ended. RICH> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "John Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> To: > >> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 2:26 PM> > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > > Chicago is the one that I was wondering > >> about. There was generally no > > reversing anywhere near the loop, but > >> there were some long, heavy > > north-south routes. Maybe I can find a > >> old track map from 1920s to see > > what sort of terminal facilities > >> existed at some of these terminals.> >> > The Dallas PCC cars that went > >> to Boston were to replace Type 5s used as > > sort-turns near the subway > >> portals. This is a vague recollection that > > needs verified.> >> > > >> Maybe another question might be who was buying double end equipment for > > >> > trunk route s!> > ervice in the 1920s??? Brooklyn had several hundred, and the > > Boston > > Type 5s came rather late in the game. But I can not recall ever > > seeing > > any pix of 5-6 cars waiting to reverse ends in a large city??> >> > John> > > >> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:36:37 -0400> From: allmanr at verizon.net> > >> > > Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > just > > > >> occurred to me that several huge systems used predominantly double > > > > >> enders, costs and lost seating capacity aside:Boston-pre-PCC > > 100%-despite > >> > loops on most lines(and btw, also post-PCC), > > Chicago(many outer routes > >> > lacked loops), Brooklyn, Third Avenue, > > Baltimore, LARwys; San > >> Francisco, > Washington DC> ----- Original > > Message ----- > From: "John > >> Swindler" <j_swindler at hotmail.com>> To: > > > >> <pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org>> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:54 AM> > > > >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > > But I grew up in Pgh late 50s and > > early > >> 60s, Fred, so the gas stations > > sprou!> > ting up in the loop terminals is > >> a remembrance. Things like > > B> > irmingham and Vera Cruz converting HL > >> cars to K controller and to > > single > > end operation involved 'noted in > >> passing' while reading > > magazines.> >> > Hard to think who else might have > >> converted double > > end car!> > s to single end > > 'Peter Witt' operation other then > > Birmingham. Didn't > > Baltimore have > > mostly DE cars until the PCCs, > > but still had loops at > > most terminals? And > > most routes > > 'through-routed' to avoid downtown > > terminals. And Mitten > > > > management bought 1500 nearside cars around > > 1912, but a lot of routes > > were > > on parallel streets. And didnt' Red > > Arrow converted 69th St. > > terminal > > from stub to loop at some point but > > kept the stub > > terminals at outer ends?> >> > You could almost claim that > > all large > > cities eventually went to single end > > operation, and then > > note the > > exceptions. And why would the large cities > > do this but not > > the > > Lancasters? As Russ, Herb and I have been claiming: > > headways. And > >!> > this was a lesson lost on MUNI management by 1970s.> >> > That was the > > > > major consideration pushing this issue. Just about > > everything else > > was > > secondary.> >> > John> >> >> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> > > Subject: > > [PRCo] Re: SE DE> Date: Sat, 17 > >> May 2008 18!> > > > :02:51 -0400> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > Not sure > >> ho> > > > w many places converted DE to SE. Pittsburgh did. > Birmingham might > >> > > > > have. I never paid much attention to what was > happening in Vera > > Cruz. > > > >> You're right about management not > caring ... but they do > > care if it > > > >> means you can cut cars out of a > schedule or if cars > > back up or if > > > >> politicians complain because of the > problem. Come > > on John ... gas > > > >> stations were not issues when we > made those > > changes ... Pittsburgh > > > >> leased a lot of loops for gas > stations > > but that was late in the game > > > >> and had nothing to do with the > > > earlier years. You will also recall > > how > >!> > > the city reacted to PRC > doing that ... "How dare you make money >> >> doing > >> that!!!!!!!"> > On May 17, 2008, at 5:06 PM, John Swindler > > > >> wrote:> > >> > >> >> > Switch points and frogs needed for stub terminals, > >> > > but not needed > > >> > for a loop. Although it is nice to have a > >> siding > > at a loop.>!> > >> > Also, with a loop, if large enough, the > >> center part > > can be leased > > > > for a gas s!> > tation. Pirl St. > >> comes to mind, but won't swear to it.> >> > > > And > > management > >> doesn't care if the motorman has to "lug" handles, > > > > > > farebox > >> and supplies to the other end. They do care if cars back > > up > > > > > >> because of scheduled headway and congestion at the terminal.> >> > > > > >> Didnt' > > Vera Cruz shop double end cars to convert to single end? > > > > >> > Likewise > > Birmingham?> > John> >> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> > >> > > Subject: [PRCo] > > Re: SE DE> Date: > >> Sat, 17 May 2008 > >> 15:03:05 -0400> > > To: pittsburgh- > > > >> railways at dementia.org> > A > >> lot of reasons for > > single-end > >> > > equipment:> > 1) you!> > can put more people in more > > seats. Depending > >> on > > how wide the > > > center doors are or whether or > > not there are > >> center > > doors, > > a single- > end car will seat 9 to 23 > > more people > >> than a > > > > double-end car. > Therefore you have more > > happy customers.> > >> > 2) > > > > Happy customers produce more revenue.> > > > 3) Seats cost le!> > ss > > > >> than additional controls, !> > wiring, air brake > piping and hand> >> > > >> brake rigging.> > 4) Turn a> > round time at the ends of lines using > > > >> > >> >> single end equipment > > > is shorter than that required for > > double- > >> > >> >> end equipment. The > > > operator doesn't have to lug > > the handles, > >> > >> >> money changer, > > his supplies > and the fare > > box to the other end of > > >> >> >> the car > > and flip all those > > > blankety-blank seats. You can go > >> > >> >> through > > a loop, fill in > > the day > card, and be out in 30 seconds. > >> > >> >> The > > double end > > car will require > several mi!> > !> > nutes. So single end > >> >> > > cars on a line might save a car or >> > two in > > the rush hour and > >> >> > > that, in today's dollars is $2 > > million for > an > > articulated or > >> >> > > about $1 million for a > > single car.> > 5) Traffic > > congestion favors > > > >> >> single end > > equipment because you can > turn it on > > private > >> > > >> property.> > > > Working against it and in favor of the double- > > end > > > >> >> cars > > you already have:> > 1) loops, either on private property > > > > or > >> > > >> around city streets !> > cost > money. Special work is incredibly > > > > > >> >> costly to fabricate. > > ("Spec!> > ial > work" is the term used for > > track > > frogs and switch > > points. It is > > > usually a manganese > > steel which is > > much harder and > > more durable than > > > ordinary > > carbon-steel.)> > 2) > > If you build the > > loop on private > > > > property, the real estate costs > > > money. If there > > is already a > > house > > there, it costs money to > > > demolish it, fill in > > the > > basement and level > > the property.> > 3) If > > you!> > have a large > > fleet of undepreciated and not > > fully > amortized > > > > double-cars, you > > really don't want to write them off > > and > buy > > ne!> > w single-end cars > > if you can you don't have to. You also > > > > > don't want> > to spend the > > money shopping those double-end cars to > > > > > convert them > > into > > single-end cars if you don't have to because > > that > > > costs > > money.> > > > 4) Stockholders don't like you spending > > their money on > > > > things > > you > don't need.> > 5) When I say dou!> > > > ble-end cars you > > > > already have, remember that > everyone alread> > > > y had double-end cars. > > > > That is the way the industry > start!> > > > > > ed.> > 6) You can also turn > > double-end cars on a spur onto > > private> > > > property > but once you have > > the land for a spur, you > > might as well > > > > take > advantage of items i, > > 2, 3 and 4 in the > > first section.> > And > > > > then there is the narrow > > versus wide > > streets issue.> > Finally > > there > !> > > is the status quo > > issue. Every business is filled > with > > peo> > ple whose > > mentality > > favors "we've always done it that way and > > > > > we should > > continue to > > do so" regardless of whether or not it > > makes > > > any sense > > at all.> > > > > On May 17, 2008, at 2:38 PM, > > Phillip > > Clark Campbell > > wrote:> > > > > ----- Original > > Message ----> >> From: > > John Swindler > > > > <j_swindler at hotmail.co!> > > > m>> >> To: > > pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> >> > > Sent: Saturday, > > > > May 17, 2008 > > 8:34:55 AM> >> Subject: [PRCo] Re: SE DE> > > >>> >>> > > >> > > Ah, Fred,> >> > > Russ Jackson told us a very valid reason for > > > > l!> > arge > > cities to go to > >> single end> >> equipment, and Ed > > Tennyson > > > > has > > told us about the 1700 series > >> interurban> >> > > purchase.> >>> > > > > >> > > Russ' stories about MUNI also says a !> > > > lot about the Third > > Ave. Ry. > > > >> route> >> structure in > > Manhattan.> > > >> > > > Mr.Swindler!> >> > > > ....And those stories > > are?> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >> > _________________________!> > ________________________________________> > > > > > Change the world with > > e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.> > > > > > > > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx? > > > > > > > > source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld> >> > >> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.> > > > > > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ > > > > > > GreaterGood> >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > Keep > > your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.> > > > http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.> > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ MakeCount> >> > > > 
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