[PRCo] Re: The complexity of Pittsburgh back when

Sun May 25 00:53:49 EDT 2008

Correction, Fred.  

98 was a peak hour only route via Penn to Larimar loop in East Liberty.  It's listed in the Bion Arnold Pittsburgh transit study for 1917.   97 was Wilmerding-McKeesport.   

This is just before the rationalization of the Penn Ave. routes per PUC decision I provided you several years ago.  Make that several times 2.

John

> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: The complexity of Pittsburgh back when> Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 15:20:58 -0400> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > No. 98 was.> > On May 24, 2008, at 3:19 PM, John Swindler wrote:> > >> >> > Wasn't 97 the Wilmerding-McKeesport number?> >> > I have a pic of the last Bessemer passenger train crossing the > > Allegheny River bridge. Think it was steam hauled. Although lived > > in Edgewood during 1950s, no recollection of steam - nor low floor > > cars. The commuter service was Alco road switcher and 2-3 > > coaches. Did ride the last commuter train as far as Wilmerding, > > where I could catch an 87 car back home. There were only two other > > passengers on the train when I got off - guess the railfans were > > riding the Allegheny Valley commuter train.> >> > I took the Capitol Limited (?) to Chicago 4 times during 1968/9 > > when I spent two summers driving buses for Chicago Transit > > Authority. At least some of those trips had a vista dome car. On > > a 'blue day', the price was something like $20. The Pennsy was an > > extravagant $25-$30 if vague recollection serves.> >> > Yes, the B&O commuter trains were busy on the weekend. I have some > > pix at McKeesport when I took my little sisters and nephew for a > > 'train ride' around 1972/3. I also took my nephew on the last > > Duquesne as far as Altoona and on a couple PRMA fantrips in early > > 1970s. That 'seed' finally germinated when he took a job as a > > Norfolk Southern conductor earlier this year. Guess the next step > > is to suggest that he should join PTM (:>)> > John> >> >> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: The complexity > >> of Pittsburgh back when> Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 14:52:20 -0400> > >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > And there was also a > >> Donora to Charleroi car! I didn't miss. I > just didn't mention > >> everything. It is a bewildering mess of routes > before 1915. > >> There also appear to be some destination numbers that > may never > >> have been used.> > And there are some that we never even hear > >> about. Ever hear of > route 97 Duquesne? It ran from McKeesport to > >> Duquesne and > duplicated the 68 cars.> > The point to be made is > >> that before we needed a rubber tires to have > a girl friend, we > >> were on the trolleys and they ran everywhere.> > The map that PERC > >> printed would not be big enough to show all the > routes because > >> you could not get all the route numbers on it. You > would need a > >> folding map like a Gulf Oil map to get all the numbers > on it.> > > >> And then think of all the trains that also ran. I remember that > >> once > a day ma!> > il train on the Bessemer and Lake Erie into North Bessemer. > I > > guess most people don't know that the B&LE once ran its trains into > > > downtown Pittsburgh using the Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburgh > > or > B&O south of Butler. It had a lot more than just one train a > > day. > As late as 1940 the B&O had three trains a day to Washington > > and > Wheeling and Kenova plus the Washington, Wheeling, Cincinnati > > and > Louisville service. Jim Shuman remembered peering out through > > the > gates of the Pittsburgh and West Virginia station and seeing > > a couple > of coaches sitting under the train shed. And I remember > > the getting > upset about 1960 because I had to pay 50 cents for a > > pack of butts in > the P&LE station ... man did they rip you > > off ... now they are as > much as a gallon of gasoline. I think I > > had just gotten off the B&O > train from Cleveland. I remember > > photographing a P&LE Alco-GE PA > diesel in that station back when > > the both it and the B&O had through > passenger trains. Wasn't!> > all that long ago that you could ride on > the P&LE/Erie or the > > B&O o> > r the PRR from Pittsburgh to Cleveland.> > My earliest train > > memories? Going to my mother's first cousin's > wedding in Chicago. > > I remember being propped up in the coach seat > and wondering when > > the train would start. I also remember being > taken out of the > > wedding because I was crying. I was very > little ... I think two > > years old. I can also remember riding the > PRR Derry locals and > > watching smoke waft over Turtle Creek. It was > World War II and > > because of gas rationing the only way you could ride > in the > > family car was meet dad when we was done working and ride home > > > with him. So you took Deere Brother's bus into Wilkinsburg, then > > > the train to Irwin and met him when he got done at noon on Saturday > > > and then rode in the automobile. Otherwise, you only saw him pull > > > in and out of the driveway in that old '39 Chevy.> > I also > > remember riding behind Alco RS-2s to get to and from > Wilmerding > > and Pitcairn to ride the 62 Trafford cars back in > 1956-1958. I > > remember t!> > hat long after the PRR closed certain > secondary stations like > > 4th Avenue, Smithfield Street and Federal > Street, the platforms > > were still there and stairways were still > maintained so that > > commuters could get on and off trains. They had > to pay cash fares > > or buy commutation tickets by mail (or downtown).> > Then I went > > out with Norm Vutz on May 26, 1964 to photograph the > single > > afternoon trains to Kiski --- one through Oakmont and the > other > > via Tarentum. PAT was telling the PRR to keeping them running > > > because "we'll get the money to subsidize them." PRR eventually > > > caught on that it was only a ruse and eventually took the commuter > > > trains off. PAT did subsidize the B&O trains to McKeesport and > > > Versailles for awhile, even to the point of building a new > > > transportation center in McKeesport, before they abandoned that > > idea.> > I guess the only time those trains were really busy was on > > the > weekends when the parents gave the kids a buck and told them > > to go > bu!> > y a weekend pass and left PAT be a babysitting service. I was > > > standi> > ng out in the vestibule of one of the McKeesport-Pittsburgh > > > PATrains one Saturday with one very pissed-off conductor who really > > > didn't like the idea of being a baby sitter.> > > > On May 24, > > 2008, at 12:21 AM, John Swindler wrote:> > >> > There were four > > lines between Wilkinsburg and Braddock Jct (as I > > remember it > > called in 1960s) 64, 65, 66 and 78. 65 was a short > > turn to > > Braddock. Baxter also mentioned that there was also a > > > > Wilkinsburg-Kennywood route via 64/67 and Rankin Bridge at one > > > > time. I just assumed summer only. And don't forget route 80. > > > > Murray Ave. was also a busy street.> >> > Yes, 9 was the > > Perrysville short turn, then later the number used > > for Charles > > St. transfer. There was a PUC petition around 1953 in > > which 7 > > Charles St. was a 24/7 type of route. Well maybe not all > > night. > > Another PUC petition from late 1950s had 7 as a peak hour > > only > > due to evaporation of ridership in only 4-5 years. Both 6 and > > 7 > > went to PRR station!> > in early years, just like 44. It's listed in > > the 'seeing > > Pittsburgh' booklet available on digital history website.> >> > > > Carson might have had four routes: two via 10th St. and two via > > > > Smithfield, but details escape me this late at night. And 41 was a > > > > short turn on rt. 40.> >> > But you missed one shuttle route > > that once ran downtown: Donora. > > Initially thru cars alternated > > Donora and Charleroi.> >> > Also 81 Atwood went downtown during > > peak in later years. And > > Thornburg went downtown, but > > Heidleburg was a shuttle.> >> > Just trying to keep up to date. (:>) > > > >> > The city was partially behind the rationalizing of the Penn > > Av., > > Ellsworth and Highland routes, Fred. It's in one of the > > PUC > > decisions I gave you several years ago.> >> > John> >> >> > > >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> From: > >> > > fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] The complexity of > >> > > Pittsburgh back when> Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 17:20:20 -0400> > > >> > > When I first journeyed !> > to East Berlin (it was East Berlin in our > > >> vernacular and > > just B> > erlin in the language of the D. D. R.) before > >> > the wall came > > tumbling down, I was amazed by the multiplicity of > >> tram > > > lines. A huge apartment complex would have routes going to > >> all > > over > the city so that people didn't need to transfer. You > >> > > just came out > of your flat and waited five minutes and the car > > > >> for your destination > would be along. Well, as automobiles came > > > >> to eastern German after > the reunification, people learned to > > > >> make do with longer streetcar > headways and to transfer like > > the > >> rest of the "free world."> > Looking at the Pittsburgh > > Railways > >> route cars shows PRC operated a > system at one time > > not at all > >> unlike what I had seen in Berlin in the > 1980s. > > Only in > >> Pittsburgh it was in 1915 and earlier. Are we !> > to > > be > amazed at how far behind they were in communist east > > > > Germany? Or > how far behind we are? Something to think about. It > > > > does not > require an answer.> > Virtually every street in th!> > e core > > section of Pittsburgh's east end > had multiple routes. > > Highland > > Avenue had the North and South > Highland lines. North > > Highland > > went from Highland Park into > Pittsburgh via > > Ellsworth, Center, > > Craig and Forbes. South Highland > went from > > Highland Park the > > entire length of Highland over to 5th > > > Avenue and into town. And > > there was also the Negley - Highland > > line > which ran on Ellsworth. > > There three or four different > > lines on > Ellsworth before 1915.> > > > Now remember that 75 > > Wilkinsburg line? It evolved out of 703 West > > > Wilkinsburg via > > 5th and Penn and 704 West Wilkinsburg via Penn. > > Both > 703 and > > 704 ran over Penn Avenue from Wilkinsburg to East > > Liberty. > > > Then 704 shared Penn Avenue in through Lawrenceville and > > the > > Strip > District with the East Liberty Express route. And 703 > > > > ran !> > over > Ellsworth and 5th Avenue. What was 75? Well that > > was 718 which> > was > part of 703 and part of 704 after August 25, > > 1918.> !> >> At one > > time there was enough business between Wilkinsburg and >> >>> Wilkinsburg Junction (Forbes and Braddock) that three routes ran > >>> > > > through there: 64, 66 and 78.> > I wonder how many of you > >>> realize > > that many or most of the shuttle > routes actually > >>> ran into > > downtown Pittsburgh at one time and they > were > >>> shortened because > > there simply were not enough customers.> A > >>> good example was the > > neighborhood on Charles Street on the > >>> North > Side. I remember PRC > > running a 7 Charles - PRR > >>> Station car. They > eventually gave up > > running it up to 11th > >>> Street because there just > wasn't enough > > business, and then > >>> they gave up altogether. Some of > you remember > > a 9 Charles > >>> car that shuttled from Perrysville and > Charles to the > > end > >>> of the 7 line until the early 1950s. But how > many know that 9 > > >>> > was once Charles via Perrysville from dawntawn while > 8 ran to > >>> > > Perrysville and East Streets?> > Route 17 Reedsdale was a > >>> remnant > > of another th!> > rough route. Once the > Manchester > >>> Bridge got route 20, the > >!> > shuttle on the lower north side > was created to connect 20 with > > > > North Side business districts it once > serviced.> > 51 Bon Air > > had > > through service to downtown at one time. The 52 line > -- > > the > > shuttle at the end of East Carson Street -- was once served > > by > > > Carson via 10th St as opposed by route 53 Carson via > > Smithfield > > Street.> > (See, once in a while Fred will post a > > Pittsburgh > > message.)> > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Change the world with e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from > > Microsoft.> > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx? > > > > source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld> >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative > > from Microsoft.> > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ > > GoodCause> >> > > 
_________________________________________________________________
Change the world with e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld