[PRCo] Re: The complexity of Pittsburgh back when

[Jerry MATT Matsick]

To all the members of PRCo group, these writeups are just fantastic, keep them coming,
almost but not quite as good as riding a street car itself.
-
>From the River City by the Sea! 
Jerry "Matt" Matsick 
Jacksonivlle, Florida ! 

-------------- Original message from Fred Schneider <fwschneider at comcast.net>: -------------- 


> No. 98 was. 
> 
> On May 24, 2008, at 3:19 PM, John Swindler wrote: 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Wasn't 97 the Wilmerding-McKeesport number? 
> > 
> > I have a pic of the last Bessemer passenger train crossing the 
> > Allegheny River bridge. Think it was steam hauled. Although lived 
> > in Edgewood during 1950s, no recollection of steam - nor low floor 
> > cars. The commuter service was Alco road switcher and 2-3 
> > coaches. Did ride the last commuter train as far as Wilmerding, 
> > where I could catch an 87 car back home. There were only two other 
> > passengers on the train when I got off - guess the railfans were 
> > riding the Allegheny Valley commuter train. 
> > 
> > I took the Capitol Limited (?) to Chicago 4 times during 1968/9 
> > when I spent two summers driving buses for Chicago Transit 
> > Authority. At least some of those trips had a vista dome car. On 
> > a 'blue day', the price was something like $20. The Pennsy was an 
> > extravagant $25-$30 if vague recollection serves. 
> > 
> > Yes, the B&O commuter trains were busy on the weekend. I have some 
> > pix at McKeesport when I took my little sisters and nephew for a 
> > 'train ride' around 1972/3. I also took my nephew on the last 
> > Duquesne as far as Altoona and on a couple PRMA fantrips in early 
> > 1970s. That 'seed' finally germinated when he took a job as a 
> > Norfolk Southern conductor earlier this year. Guess the next step 
> > is to suggest that he should join PTM (:>) 
> > John 
> > 
> > 
> >> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: The complexity 
> >> of Pittsburgh back when> Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 14:52:20 -0400> 
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > And there was also a 
> >> Donora to Charleroi car! I didn't miss. I > just didn't mention 
> >> everything. It is a bewildering mess of routes > before 1915. 
> >> There also appear to be some destination numbers that > may never 
> >> have been used.> > And there are some that we never even hear 
> >> about. Ever hear of > route 97 Duquesne? It ran from McKeesport to 
> >> Duquesne and > duplicated the 68 cars.> > The point to be made is 
> >> that before we needed a rubber tires to have > a girl friend, we 
> >> were on the trolleys and they ran everywhere.> > The map that PERC 
> >> printed would not be big enough to show all the > routes because 
> >> you could not get all the route numbers on it. You > would need a 
> >> folding map like a Gulf Oil map to get all the numbers > on it.> > 
> >> And then think of all the trains that also ran. I remember that 
> >> once > a day ma! 
> > il train on the Bessemer and Lake Erie into North Bessemer. > I 
> > guess most people don't know that the B&LE once ran its trains into 
> > > downtown Pittsburgh using the Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburgh 
> > or > B&O south of Butler. It had a lot more than just one train a 
> > day. > As late as 1940 the B&O had three trains a day to Washington 
> > and > Wheeling and Kenova plus the Washington, Wheeling, Cincinnati 
> > and > Louisville service. Jim Shuman remembered peering out through 
> > the > gates of the Pittsburgh and West Virginia station and seeing 
> > a couple > of coaches sitting under the train shed. And I remember 
> > the getting > upset about 1960 because I had to pay 50 cents for a 
> > pack of butts in > the P&LE station ... man did they rip you 
> > off ... now they are as > much as a gallon of gasoline. I think I 
> > had just gotten off the B&O > train from Cleveland. I remember 
> > photographing a P&LE Alco-GE PA > diesel in that station back when 
> > the both it and the B&O had through > passenger trains. Wasn't! 
> > all that long ago that you could ride on > the P&LE/Erie or the 
> > B&O o 
> > r the PRR from Pittsburgh to Cleveland.> > My earliest train 
> > memories? Going to my mother's first cousin's > wedding in Chicago. 
> > I remember being propped up in the coach seat > and wondering when 
> > the train would start. I also remember being > taken out of the 
> > wedding because I was crying. I was very > little ... I think two 
> > years old. I can also remember riding the > PRR Derry locals and 
> > watching smoke waft over Turtle Creek. It was > World War II and 
> > because of gas rationing the only way you could ride > in the 
> > family car was meet dad when we was done working and ride home > 
> > with him. So you took Deere Brother's bus into Wilkinsburg, then > 
> > the train to Irwin and met him when he got done at noon on Saturday 
> > > and then rode in the automobile. Otherwise, you only saw him pull 
> > > in and out of the driveway in that old '39 Chevy.> > I also 
> > remember riding behind Alco RS-2s to get to and from > Wilmerding 
> > and Pitcairn to ride the 62 Trafford cars back in > 1956-1958. I 
> > remember t! 
> > hat long after the PRR closed certain > secondary stations like 
> > 4th Avenue, Smithfield Street and Federal > Street, the platforms 
> > were still there and stairways were still > maintained so that 
> > commuters could get on and off trains. They had > to pay cash fares 
> > or buy commutation tickets by mail (or downtown).> > Then I went 
> > out with Norm Vutz on May 26, 1964 to photograph the > single 
> > afternoon trains to Kiski --- one through Oakmont and the > other 
> > via Tarentum. PAT was telling the PRR to keeping them running > 
> > because "we'll get the money to subsidize them." PRR eventually > 
> > caught on that it was only a ruse and eventually took the commuter 
> > > trains off. PAT did subsidize the B&O trains to McKeesport and > 
> > Versailles for awhile, even to the point of building a new > 
> > transportation center in McKeesport, before they abandoned that 
> > idea.> > I guess the only time those trains were really busy was on 
> > the > weekends when the parents gave the kids a buck and told them 
> > to go > bu! 
> > y a weekend pass and left PAT be a babysitting service. I was > 
> > standi 
> > ng out in the vestibule of one of the McKeesport-Pittsburgh > 
> > PATrains one Saturday with one very pissed-off conductor who really 
> > > didn't like the idea of being a baby sitter.> > > > On May 24, 
> > 2008, at 12:21 AM, John Swindler wrote:> > >> > There were four 
> > lines between Wilkinsburg and Braddock Jct (as I > > remember it 
> > called in 1960s) 64, 65, 66 and 78. 65 was a short > > turn to 
> > Braddock. Baxter also mentioned that there was also a > > 
> > Wilkinsburg-Kennywood route via 64/67 and Rankin Bridge at one > > 
> > time. I just assumed summer only. And don't forget route 80. > > 
> > Murray Ave. was also a busy street.> >> > Yes, 9 was the 
> > Perrysville short turn, then later the number used > > for Charles 
> > St. transfer. There was a PUC petition around 1953 in > > which 7 
> > Charles St. was a 24/7 type of route. Well maybe not all > > night. 
> > Another PUC petition from late 1950s had 7 as a peak hour > > only 
> > due to evaporation of ridership in only 4-5 years. Both 6 and > > 7 
> > went to PRR station! 
> > in early years, just like 44. It's listed in > > the 'seeing 
> > Pittsburgh' booklet available on digital history website.> >> > 
> > Carson might have had four routes: two via 10th St. and two via > > 
> > Smithfield, but details escape me this late at night. And 41 was a 
> > > > short turn on rt. 40.> >> > But you missed one shuttle route 
> > that once ran downtown: Donora. > > Initially thru cars alternated 
> > Donora and Charleroi.> >> > Also 81 Atwood went downtown during 
> > peak in later years. And > > Thornburg went downtown, but 
> > Heidleburg was a shuttle.> >> > Just trying to keep up to date. (:>) 
> > > >> > The city was partially behind the rationalizing of the Penn 
> > Av., > > Ellsworth and Highland routes, Fred. It's in one of the 
> > PUC > > decisions I gave you several years ago.> >> > John> >> >> 
> > >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> From: > >> 
> > fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] The complexity of > >> 
> > Pittsburgh back when> Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 17:20:20 -0400> > > >> 
> > When I first journeyed ! 
> > to East Berlin (it was East Berlin in our > > >> vernacular and 
> > just B 
> > erlin in the language of the D. D. R.) before > >> > the wall came 
> > tumbling down, I was amazed by the multiplicity of > >> tram > 
> > lines. A huge apartment complex would have routes going to > >> all 
> > over > the city so that people didn't need to transfer. You > >> 
> > just came out > of your flat and waited five minutes and the car > 
> > >> for your destination > would be along. Well, as automobiles came 
> > > >> to eastern German after > the reunification, people learned to 
> > > >> make do with longer streetcar > headways and to transfer like 
> > the > >> rest of the "free world."> > Looking at the Pittsburgh 
> > Railways > >> route cars shows PRC operated a > system at one time 
> > not at all > >> unlike what I had seen in Berlin in the > 1980s. 
> > Only in > >> Pittsburgh it was in 1915 and earlier. Are we !> > to 
> > be > amazed at how far behind they were in communist east > > 
> > Germany? Or > how far behind we are? Something to think about. It > 
> > > does not > require an answer.> > Virtually every street in th! 
> > e core > > section of Pittsburgh's east end > had multiple routes. 
> > Highland > > Avenue had the North and South > Highland lines. North 
> > Highland > > went from Highland Park into > Pittsburgh via 
> > Ellsworth, Center, > > Craig and Forbes. South Highland > went from 
> > Highland Park the > > entire length of Highland over to 5th > 
> > Avenue and into town. And > > there was also the Negley - Highland 
> > line > which ran on Ellsworth. > > There three or four different 
> > lines on > Ellsworth before 1915.> > > > Now remember that 75 
> > Wilkinsburg line? It evolved out of 703 West > > > Wilkinsburg via 
> > 5th and Penn and 704 West Wilkinsburg via Penn. > > Both > 703 and 
> > 704 ran over Penn Avenue from Wilkinsburg to East > > Liberty. > 
> > Then 704 shared Penn Avenue in through Lawrenceville and > > the 
> > Strip > District with the East Liberty Express route. And 703 > > 
> > ran !> > over > Ellsworth and 5th Avenue. What was 75? Well that 
> > was 718 which> > was > part of 703 and part of 704 after August 25, 
> > 1918.> ! 
> >> At one > > time there was enough business between Wilkinsburg and > 
> >>> Wilkinsburg Junction (Forbes and Braddock) that three routes ran 
> >>> > > > through there: 64, 66 and 78.> > I wonder how many of you 
> >>> realize > > that many or most of the shuttle > routes actually 
> >>> ran into > > downtown Pittsburgh at one time and they > were 
> >>> shortened because > > there simply were not enough customers.> A 
> >>> good example was the > > neighborhood on Charles Street on the 
> >>> North > Side. I remember PRC > > running a 7 Charles - PRR 
> >>> Station car. They > eventually gave up > > running it up to 11th 
> >>> Street because there just > wasn't enough > > business, and then 
> >>> they gave up altogether. Some of > you remember > > a 9 Charles 
> >>> car that shuttled from Perrysville and > Charles to the > > end 
> >>> of the 7 line until the early 1950s. But how > many know that 9 > 
> >>> > was once Charles via Perrysville from dawntawn while > 8 ran to 
> >>> > > Perrysville and East Streets?> > Route 17 Reedsdale was a 
> >>> remnant > > of another th!> > rough route. Once the > Manchester 
> >>> Bridge got route 20, the > >! 
> > shuttle on the lower north side > was created to connect 20 with 
> > > > North Side business districts it once > serviced.> > 51 Bon Air 
> > had > > through service to downtown at one time. The 52 line > -- 
> > the > > shuttle at the end of East Carson Street -- was once served 
> > by > > > Carson via 10th St as opposed by route 53 Carson via 
> > Smithfield > > Street.> > (See, once in a while Fred will post a 
> > Pittsburgh > > message.)> > >> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________> 
> > > Change the world with e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from 
> > Microsoft.> > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx? > 
> > > source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld> >> > > 
> > _________________________________________________________________ 
> > Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative 
> > from Microsoft. 
> > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ 
> > GoodCause 
> > 
> 
> 
>