[PRCo] Re: The complexity of Pittsburgh back when
Fred Schneider
fwschneider at comcast.net
Sat May 24 15:20:58 EDT 2008
No. 98 was.
On May 24, 2008, at 3:19 PM, John Swindler wrote:
>
>
> Wasn't 97 the Wilmerding-McKeesport number?
>
> I have a pic of the last Bessemer passenger train crossing the
> Allegheny River bridge. Think it was steam hauled. Although lived
> in Edgewood during 1950s, no recollection of steam - nor low floor
> cars. The commuter service was Alco road switcher and 2-3
> coaches. Did ride the last commuter train as far as Wilmerding,
> where I could catch an 87 car back home. There were only two other
> passengers on the train when I got off - guess the railfans were
> riding the Allegheny Valley commuter train.
>
> I took the Capitol Limited (?) to Chicago 4 times during 1968/9
> when I spent two summers driving buses for Chicago Transit
> Authority. At least some of those trips had a vista dome car. On
> a 'blue day', the price was something like $20. The Pennsy was an
> extravagant $25-$30 if vague recollection serves.
>
> Yes, the B&O commuter trains were busy on the weekend. I have some
> pix at McKeesport when I took my little sisters and nephew for a
> 'train ride' around 1972/3. I also took my nephew on the last
> Duquesne as far as Altoona and on a couple PRMA fantrips in early
> 1970s. That 'seed' finally germinated when he took a job as a
> Norfolk Southern conductor earlier this year. Guess the next step
> is to suggest that he should join PTM (:>)
> John
>
>
>> From: fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] Re: The complexity
>> of Pittsburgh back when> Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 14:52:20 -0400>
>> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> > And there was also a
>> Donora to Charleroi car! I didn't miss. I > just didn't mention
>> everything. It is a bewildering mess of routes > before 1915.
>> There also appear to be some destination numbers that > may never
>> have been used.> > And there are some that we never even hear
>> about. Ever hear of > route 97 Duquesne? It ran from McKeesport to
>> Duquesne and > duplicated the 68 cars.> > The point to be made is
>> that before we needed a rubber tires to have > a girl friend, we
>> were on the trolleys and they ran everywhere.> > The map that PERC
>> printed would not be big enough to show all the > routes because
>> you could not get all the route numbers on it. You > would need a
>> folding map like a Gulf Oil map to get all the numbers > on it.> >
>> And then think of all the trains that also ran. I remember that
>> once > a day ma!
> il train on the Bessemer and Lake Erie into North Bessemer. > I
> guess most people don't know that the B&LE once ran its trains into
> > downtown Pittsburgh using the Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburgh
> or > B&O south of Butler. It had a lot more than just one train a
> day. > As late as 1940 the B&O had three trains a day to Washington
> and > Wheeling and Kenova plus the Washington, Wheeling, Cincinnati
> and > Louisville service. Jim Shuman remembered peering out through
> the > gates of the Pittsburgh and West Virginia station and seeing
> a couple > of coaches sitting under the train shed. And I remember
> the getting > upset about 1960 because I had to pay 50 cents for a
> pack of butts in > the P&LE station ... man did they rip you
> off ... now they are as > much as a gallon of gasoline. I think I
> had just gotten off the B&O > train from Cleveland. I remember
> photographing a P&LE Alco-GE PA > diesel in that station back when
> the both it and the B&O had through > passenger trains. Wasn't!
> all that long ago that you could ride on > the P&LE/Erie or the
> B&O o
> r the PRR from Pittsburgh to Cleveland.> > My earliest train
> memories? Going to my mother's first cousin's > wedding in Chicago.
> I remember being propped up in the coach seat > and wondering when
> the train would start. I also remember being > taken out of the
> wedding because I was crying. I was very > little ... I think two
> years old. I can also remember riding the > PRR Derry locals and
> watching smoke waft over Turtle Creek. It was > World War II and
> because of gas rationing the only way you could ride > in the
> family car was meet dad when we was done working and ride home >
> with him. So you took Deere Brother's bus into Wilkinsburg, then >
> the train to Irwin and met him when he got done at noon on Saturday
> > and then rode in the automobile. Otherwise, you only saw him pull
> > in and out of the driveway in that old '39 Chevy.> > I also
> remember riding behind Alco RS-2s to get to and from > Wilmerding
> and Pitcairn to ride the 62 Trafford cars back in > 1956-1958. I
> remember t!
> hat long after the PRR closed certain > secondary stations like
> 4th Avenue, Smithfield Street and Federal > Street, the platforms
> were still there and stairways were still > maintained so that
> commuters could get on and off trains. They had > to pay cash fares
> or buy commutation tickets by mail (or downtown).> > Then I went
> out with Norm Vutz on May 26, 1964 to photograph the > single
> afternoon trains to Kiski --- one through Oakmont and the > other
> via Tarentum. PAT was telling the PRR to keeping them running >
> because "we'll get the money to subsidize them." PRR eventually >
> caught on that it was only a ruse and eventually took the commuter
> > trains off. PAT did subsidize the B&O trains to McKeesport and >
> Versailles for awhile, even to the point of building a new >
> transportation center in McKeesport, before they abandoned that
> idea.> > I guess the only time those trains were really busy was on
> the > weekends when the parents gave the kids a buck and told them
> to go > bu!
> y a weekend pass and left PAT be a babysitting service. I was >
> standi
> ng out in the vestibule of one of the McKeesport-Pittsburgh >
> PATrains one Saturday with one very pissed-off conductor who really
> > didn't like the idea of being a baby sitter.> > > > On May 24,
> 2008, at 12:21 AM, John Swindler wrote:> > >> > There were four
> lines between Wilkinsburg and Braddock Jct (as I > > remember it
> called in 1960s) 64, 65, 66 and 78. 65 was a short > > turn to
> Braddock. Baxter also mentioned that there was also a > >
> Wilkinsburg-Kennywood route via 64/67 and Rankin Bridge at one > >
> time. I just assumed summer only. And don't forget route 80. > >
> Murray Ave. was also a busy street.> >> > Yes, 9 was the
> Perrysville short turn, then later the number used > > for Charles
> St. transfer. There was a PUC petition around 1953 in > > which 7
> Charles St. was a 24/7 type of route. Well maybe not all > > night.
> Another PUC petition from late 1950s had 7 as a peak hour > > only
> due to evaporation of ridership in only 4-5 years. Both 6 and > > 7
> went to PRR station!
> in early years, just like 44. It's listed in > > the 'seeing
> Pittsburgh' booklet available on digital history website.> >> >
> Carson might have had four routes: two via 10th St. and two via > >
> Smithfield, but details escape me this late at night. And 41 was a
> > > short turn on rt. 40.> >> > But you missed one shuttle route
> that once ran downtown: Donora. > > Initially thru cars alternated
> Donora and Charleroi.> >> > Also 81 Atwood went downtown during
> peak in later years. And > > Thornburg went downtown, but
> Heidleburg was a shuttle.> >> > Just trying to keep up to date. (:>)
> > >> > The city was partially behind the rationalizing of the Penn
> Av., > > Ellsworth and Highland routes, Fred. It's in one of the
> PUC > > decisions I gave you several years ago.> >> > John> >> >>
> >> To: pittsburgh-railways at dementia.org> From: > >>
> fwschneider at comcast.net> Subject: [PRCo] The complexity of > >>
> Pittsburgh back when> Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 17:20:20 -0400> > > >>
> When I first journeyed !
> to East Berlin (it was East Berlin in our > > >> vernacular and
> just B
> erlin in the language of the D. D. R.) before > >> > the wall came
> tumbling down, I was amazed by the multiplicity of > >> tram >
> lines. A huge apartment complex would have routes going to > >> all
> over > the city so that people didn't need to transfer. You > >>
> just came out > of your flat and waited five minutes and the car >
> >> for your destination > would be along. Well, as automobiles came
> > >> to eastern German after > the reunification, people learned to
> > >> make do with longer streetcar > headways and to transfer like
> the > >> rest of the "free world."> > Looking at the Pittsburgh
> Railways > >> route cars shows PRC operated a > system at one time
> not at all > >> unlike what I had seen in Berlin in the > 1980s.
> Only in > >> Pittsburgh it was in 1915 and earlier. Are we !> > to
> be > amazed at how far behind they were in communist east > >
> Germany? Or > how far behind we are? Something to think about. It >
> > does not > require an answer.> > Virtually every street in th!
> e core > > section of Pittsburgh's east end > had multiple routes.
> Highland > > Avenue had the North and South > Highland lines. North
> Highland > > went from Highland Park into > Pittsburgh via
> Ellsworth, Center, > > Craig and Forbes. South Highland > went from
> Highland Park the > > entire length of Highland over to 5th >
> Avenue and into town. And > > there was also the Negley - Highland
> line > which ran on Ellsworth. > > There three or four different
> lines on > Ellsworth before 1915.> > > > Now remember that 75
> Wilkinsburg line? It evolved out of 703 West > > > Wilkinsburg via
> 5th and Penn and 704 West Wilkinsburg via Penn. > > Both > 703 and
> 704 ran over Penn Avenue from Wilkinsburg to East > > Liberty. >
> Then 704 shared Penn Avenue in through Lawrenceville and > > the
> Strip > District with the East Liberty Express route. And 703 > >
> ran !> > over > Ellsworth and 5th Avenue. What was 75? Well that
> was 718 which> > was > part of 703 and part of 704 after August 25,
> 1918.> !
>> At one > > time there was enough business between Wilkinsburg and >
>>> Wilkinsburg Junction (Forbes and Braddock) that three routes ran
>>> > > > through there: 64, 66 and 78.> > I wonder how many of you
>>> realize > > that many or most of the shuttle > routes actually
>>> ran into > > downtown Pittsburgh at one time and they > were
>>> shortened because > > there simply were not enough customers.> A
>>> good example was the > > neighborhood on Charles Street on the
>>> North > Side. I remember PRC > > running a 7 Charles - PRR
>>> Station car. They > eventually gave up > > running it up to 11th
>>> Street because there just > wasn't enough > > business, and then
>>> they gave up altogether. Some of > you remember > > a 9 Charles
>>> car that shuttled from Perrysville and > Charles to the > > end
>>> of the 7 line until the early 1950s. But how > many know that 9 >
>>> > was once Charles via Perrysville from dawntawn while > 8 ran to
>>> > > Perrysville and East Streets?> > Route 17 Reedsdale was a
>>> remnant > > of another th!> > rough route. Once the > Manchester
>>> Bridge got route 20, the > >!
> shuttle on the lower north side > was created to connect 20 with
> > > North Side business districts it once > serviced.> > 51 Bon Air
> had > > through service to downtown at one time. The 52 line > --
> the > > shuttle at the end of East Carson Street -- was once served
> by > > > Carson via 10th St as opposed by route 53 Carson via
> Smithfield > > Street.> > (See, once in a while Fred will post a
> Pittsburgh > > message.)> > >> >
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